Best Katarina Build?

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Ur little sister

Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Siary View Post
Alright well specifically on the mid champs you play to counter kat, the only real one i (i dont know about anyone else) ever have an issue with is Leblanc. I feel like she is almost the only counter to her since her silence + superior burst at low levels. Now considering i only lose to her for the first 15min and at most its only been 2 deaths then easily came back from that.

Now with respect to harrassing kat, she has a lot of mobility of escaping and dodging half the attacks made against her. One thing i always like to do with people that have skill shots is to not Shunpo to them but the the minions near them when they last hit after i have tagged them with BB as SS can easily hit them and i can get out with most of the time not a single scratch.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say it...
The mid players you're playing against aren't good.

Sounds horrible, I know. But let's face it: new Kat is one of the easyest champions out there to be somewhat effective at. (Unlike old one, who ppb was one of the hardest ones out there. Funny how that turned out o.O). Dealing with Katarina is something you just have to know how to do. It requires you to actually have some knowledge about Kat and several game strategies in general. Like I said, the current "meta" playstyle favors Kat enormously. If you let Kat freefarm, then you're going to have a bad time. Ideally, you should have at least a 50 cs lead on Kat by the 10 minute mark. (I've done this in almost every game against her.) You can't do this if you keep pushing the lane.

What this current meta does is it allows you as a mid laner to make bigger plays outside of your lane and impact the entire game. Kind of carry on your own kind of thing. It's also safe within the lane. The price you pay for it is that you pretty much give the same privilege to your opponent. That's why I don't believe in playing the "powerfarm/roam" strategy against Kat: she scales too well. Exploit her early weakness, build on your advantage, let her push the lane, freeze it in front of the turret and be agressive against her. Countering Kat isn't about matchups as much as it is about strategy. And honestly, in my own games (I'm only a 1600 euro player though), I don't see this adaptability in games yet. People seem to play whatever the meta is, reguardless of whether it's situationally a smart thing to do or not.


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Amoc

Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Ur little sister View Post
Kage's? I meant I send them back before they farm enough to get an amp tome generally. Kage is a 12-15 minute mark item ish for them in most of my matches.
Okay I was kind of curious about your experience until you wrote this. Even a hard counter like Leblanc isn't going to send a semi-competent Kat back before she has enough CS for an amp tome. 12-15 minutes for a Kage's too? Really? My goal is usually a Deathcap by 20 (sadly, it's usually more like 22).

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Originally Posted by Ur little sister View Post
Almost all champions have point&click stuff. Also, the MS buff is only 1 second and she has to start from behind you. She's hittable with skillshots after the MS buff ends if they're long ranged. Though ideally, you would take point&click skills. But almost all champions have those + ranged auto-attacks. I haven't lost trades yet with her :/.
Kat can dodge skillshots...and she's really good at it. If she's usuing a minion wave as cover, her opponent will as often as not miss a skillshot. Most champions have point and click abilities, that's true, but they'll only be able to use 1 before she's out of range and unless it's some sort of CC she'll get away.


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Ur little sister

Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
Okay I was kind of curious about your experience until you wrote this. Even a hard counter like Leblanc isn't going to send a semi-competent Kat back before she has enough CS for an amp tome. 12-15 minutes for a Kage's too? Really? My goal is usually a Deathcap by 20 (sadly, it's usually more like 22).
I'm surprised too... But it's what I see happen consistently. I'm only 1600-ish, so it might well be better at your level of play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc
Kat can dodge skillshots...and she's really good at it. If she's usuing a minion wave as cover, her opponent will as often as not miss a skillshot. Most champions have point and click abilities, that's true, but they'll only be able to use 1 before she's out of range and unless it's some sort of CC she'll get away.
1 nuke + 2 auto's of she shunpo's on you.
1 nuke + 1 auto if she lasthits a creep with an aa/shunpo/w, but that's free damage.
Idk, if you make sure to do the above consistetly every time, in my experience you either punch her out of lane pretty fast, or deny her A LOT of farm.

And the thing with skillshots is... Well, it depends on which champion you're playing really. If it gets stopped by minions (eg brand) then it's not that easy to hit. However, if minions aren't that big a deal, just make sure to NOT walk back if she shunpo's on you. (move forward instead). Throw skillshot as her W speed boost ends OR during the shunpo if you see it coming (aim behind you). With this I want to say that it's not THAT hard if you don't back off.

I'm surprised with how extreme the results are myself too... After like 3-5 ish games of completely destroying Kats that were playing better than me or had a significant advantage over me I just went to the forums looking if people were talking about possible buffs. Consensus turns out to be that "she's on the verge of OP". I'm still trying to wrap my head around what's happening. Possibilities include:
- every single Kat I've played against sucks hard
- my elo is WAY lower than my "true" elo (which migh not be that far fetched.)
- I know and understand Katarina WAY too well. (this isn't too stupid either. I was a hugetime Kat main for a long time, and I've tested the new one extensively)
- It's a matter of meta religion hugely favoring this incarnation of Katarina
- uninstall noob, she's OP.

I don't really know why I'm seeing what I'm seeing. I just doubt that anybody I'm arguing with is actually trying what I'm saying here to try and reproduce it. People just say "she's op noob" or something similar. I'd love to know how other players fare once they start playing hyperpassive farm / hyperagressive harass against Kats.


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Amoc

Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Ur little sister View Post
I'm just gonna go ahead and say it...
Ideally, you should have at least a 50 cs lead on Kat by the 10 minute mark. (I've done this in almost every game against her.) You can't do this if you keep pushing the lane.
From the sounds of it you were playing really bad Kats. The benchmark for strong play is 100 cs by 10 minutes. Most people don't manage that, and I'd assume that's true for 1600 elo as well. It's probably more like 75-90 on the high end unless you're playing a farm fest champ. What you're saying, therefore, is that you can consistently hold an enemy Kat to 25-40 CS after 10 minutes, which is just a joke. I could be playing with wool mittens on and manage better than that with a troll champ.

The crux of your argument seems to be that Kat suffers mostly because she's a melee champ, which doesn't really hold much water. There are plenty of melee mids that can succeed if played right. By the time Kat has Shunpo (which is level 4 for me), auto attacks don't make up for Kat hitting her opponent with a full combo and then escaping through the minion wave. Unless the enemy laner can reliably land a full combo of their own (ie Ryze, Leblanc, Annie) they're going to lose the trade. With the shunpo dmg reduction and armor yellows, the opponent will net maybe 60 dmg on 2 auto attacks, since Kat will have auto-attacked herself after Shunpo.

As for your Elo, it doesn't really matter than much. Champ statistics are showing Kat's performing fairly well right now. If Kat was as easy to shut down as you say, pros would have figured this out already and everyone would be dumping on her.


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Ur little sister

Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
It's just...I could be laning Trundle mid and manage better CS than what you're saying you leave an enemy Kat with. From the sounds of it you were playing really bad Kats.

The crux of your argument seems to be that Kat suffers mostly because she's a melee champ, which doesn't really hold much water. There are plenty of melee mids that can succeed if played right. By the time Kat has Shunpo (which is level 4 for me), auto attacks don't make up for Kat hitting her opponent with a full combo and then escaping through the minion wave. Unless the enemy laner can reliably land a full combo of their own (ie Ryze, Leblanc, Annie) they're going to lose the trade. With the shunpo dmg reduction and armor yellows, the opponent will net maybe 60 dmg on 2 auto attacks, since Kat will have auto-attacked herself after Shunpo.

As for your Elo, it doesn't really matter than much. Champ statistics are showing Kat's performing fairly well right now. If Kat was as easy to shut down as you say, pros would have figured this out already and everyone would be dumping on her.
I think the fact that she can't shunpo for every creep she wants to lasthit, and the fact that whenever she harasses she kind of forces herself into either taking free harass or not lasthitting for 10-ish seconds play too. Like every 10-8 seconds she gets the choice between trading damage or lasthitting a minion.

Other melee champions mid... Gragas is a farming beast with sustain, better damage reduction, higher aa damage.
I don't think Talon's great mid
Kassadin... idk how they rank compared to each other. What I do know is that Kassadin can lose pretty ugly against this same strategy too, which is why annie and anivia are good picks against him.

About the pro's... They tended to play pretty badly agianst old Kat if I remember well. But yeah, almost nobody played her. I honestly don't know how the dynamics of champion select and counterplaying work at that level.


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Amoc

Senior Member

10-16-2012

She's an extremely aggressive laner. That's how she plays. If the enemy opts to harrass then it's likely they're going to eat a full combo and, for most champs, end up on the lousier end of the exchange. The shunpo damage reduction bonus really can't be stressed enough. Maybe she has to back off for 10 seconds and play careful after that, but she'd by hanging out at the opposite end of her minion wave and she still has the option to throw BB for last hitting and counter harrass until Shunpo is back up.

Other melee mid champs would be Mordekaiser, Galio, Diana....I'm sure there are more as well.

As for the pros, it doesn't really matter about counter-picking etc. Nobody should get shut down as badly as you're saying you can shut an enemy Kat down. With 3 health pots to start there's literally no reason someone should lose that badly, even if they're being hard countered like Pantheon vs Gangplank.


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kavinh the third

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Senior Member

11-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
She's an extremely aggressive laner. That's how she plays. If the enemy opts to harrass then it's likely they're going to eat a full combo and, for most champs, end up on the lousier end of the exchange. The shunpo damage reduction bonus really can't be stressed enough. Maybe she has to back off for 10 seconds and play careful after that, but she'd by hanging out at the opposite end of her minion wave and she still has the option to throw BB for last hitting and counter harrass until Shunpo is back up.

Other melee mid champs would be Mordekaiser, Galio, Diana....I'm sure there are more as well.

As for the pros, it doesn't really matter about counter-picking etc. Nobody should get shut down as badly as you're saying you can shut an enemy Kat down. With 3 health pots to start there's literally no reason someone should lose that badly, even if they're being hard countered like Pantheon vs Gangplank.

why the hell are u even posting i've seen a couple of your posts and you have absolutely no clue how to play the game. you flame guides for champions you don't even own what a troll