Talon Potential ADC?

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NinjaCalibur

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Yeah yeah I know, at first look it sounds like something trollful. I know. But earlier I was forced to play bottom lane as Talon, even though I had called mid and it was clear I was going to be our mid as Talon. Our teammate had chosen Diana and stubbornly insisted on being mid. So I had to improvise and go to bottom lane.

Anyway.. It was me bottom lane as Talon with a Janna vs Graves & Taric.

Surprisingly from the get-go we were doing fine. And as every second kept ticking by we were doing more fine and more fine. I started building speed and damage on Talon ASAP. To accommodate late game as his burst obviously falls off at one point.

To my dismay we were winning the lane easy. But because of this, and Talon and Janna's hard push capability we over extended pretty hard. Had Taric and Graves pretty much being jabbed at under their own tower with nothing to do in return. Which I found funny. But we were still zoning them out too.
Eventually the enemy jungler Rengar began to focus bottom lane. Killing us off. However, regardless of how much that jungler kept sticking to our lane we still had the up on Graves & Taric.

Mid game all outter towers down on both sides, I was surprisingly destroying the enemy team in team fights and being a major clean up with my E+R combo and W on escapee's. I was nearly causing quadra kills even though I was focusing on being an ADC with mixed Auto Attack Speed + Attack Damage.

Mid-Late game I was able to cause us nearly every team fight victory and had the enemy team scared whenever they saw me lurking behind my teammates before a team fight would ensue.. I was throwing down towers like nothing thanks to the speed + damage from Q.

Needless to say we won that match over easy. Even when we started off being ganked a lot.
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Do any of you think Talon has the potential to be a type of ADC?

  • -He has a ranged slow cone skill shot that does insane damage in itself and beautiful harass. Which helps with protecting allies in escape or hunting down the escapees. And it clears minion waves quickly.
  • -His Q amplifies his next auto attack.
  • -He can silence and cripple an AP carry in a team fight. Or even any enemy that could change the game up in that split moment.
  • -His ult does a ton of damage regardless of focusing on AS or AD. And allows him an escape. It has a low low cooldown and can easily be used to farm with quickly too and fend base as well.

Late game he can backdoor like a boss. In many ways far better than Jax can with his Q. And he can even be much more efficient than Jax as a lane pusher. As Jax can only really take down 1 minion at a time in waves and Talon can destroy all minions in a wave with 1 skill shot.

Also, with Talon being the ADC, that leaves room open for a mid AP carry to also worry about. Rather than matches where mid Talon takes over the role of any mid carry. And in many cases you still have your AP bruiser/tank top and AP bruiser/tank jungler. With your ADC bot and support.
With Talon being focused as one of the only actual AD champs on a team comp playing bottom lane it forces the enemy team to focus more on MR building than AD. Or if they try to build AD they leave themselves open to being thrown down easy by the rest of the team that stands as AP magic damage dealers.

Not to mention all Talon needs to do to build defense against an ADC at bottom lane is build a Frozen Heart which fits him beautifully in Armor defense, CDR and mana for more harass and lane sustain.

What do you guys think of this?
Keeping in mind, most ADC's do stand as clean up in the back lines and poke in team fights. Preparing to pick off stragglers and not actually being in the heart center of a fight. And focus mainly on farms. Which Talon can do incredibly well.
Talon's way of ADC'ing has him harass with his W to the entire enemy team doing damage and at the right moment can come in and clean up the entire enemy team all at once. Not to mention his W has a low CD. Especially even lower with CD items like Frozen Heart.
Where as you have champs like Ezreal who have to poke at each and every champ from a far distance, has a dodge skill that doesn't have long range and he typically builds very squishy even with a GA and can't at all risk being around. While Talon can escape, has just as much range and can do much more damage. And definitely clean up far better. Even with an oracle's countering Talon the right team comp can ensure his survival. And entering the team fight at th eright time after everything has been cast off with enemies helps ensure he can't be harmed. Especially with a flash out and a potential Quicksilver Sash if the enemy team has too much CC.


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Eugenides

Senior Member

10-07-2012

I dunno, if you wanna play an AD bruiser as a carry, I'm more a fan of Gangplank because he has a ranged tool for last hitting, and gets more gold from doing so.


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NinjaCalibur

Senior Member

10-07-2012

They used to say that transitioning Talon mid to late game into Attack Speed keeps him viable since he falls off in burst later on. But if a team is more focused on building MR over Armor his burst may still stand a little bit. But furthermore, with LW and armorpen he can be deadly all game combined with attack speed. His auto attack speed may be low but his E closes the gap and his W ensures no escape or distance gain from him. Not to mention his Q amps his auto attacks every second(1sec CD). He kind of makes up for the lack of AS range with his skill kit in many ways.


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NinjaCalibur

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugenides View Post
I dunno, if you wanna play an AD bruiser as a carry, I'm more a fan of Gangplank because he has a ranged tool for last hitting, and gets more gold from doing so.

Yeah GP is pretty good in terms of that. I'm just talking about a possibility with Talon. I mean I really haven't been playing Talon anymore due to his late game inability and me normally holding mid. But I noticed with him not being mid nor top he isn't focused down to be countered so much. Which actually in some ways makes him pretty deadly even into mid and late game.


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Vuther

Senior Member

10-07-2012

The lack of a ranged-autoattack basically eliminates any melee champions' ability to be their team's main source of sustained damage in teamfights against smart teams. Once they start autoattacking, they are liable to be in the range of 5 other enemy players. Without much durability, they will die quickly, and thus fail to do much sustained damage. If their team banks on them to be their main source of sustained damage, the team will likely just end up disappointed.


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asamu

Senior Member

10-07-2012

He is more of a counter ADC. He falls off late game, so really it is just about shutting down theirs so your team can win late game. He isn't an ADC himself. Panth can do the same, and it is 100% viable on either of these champs..


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NinjaCalibur

Senior Member

10-07-2012

That's the thing though. Sustained damage. Talon can continually keep doing damage with range from his W. And his damage per W easily equals up to 4-7 ADC ranged auto attack pokes by mid game.

There are rarely times when an ADC will literally be poking at enemies for minutes on end before a recall, or a team fight or in a team fight as no team fight lasts minutes. By the time the duration ends of a poke, harass and sustained adc ranged scenario ends, a champion like Talon could have easily done the same and still have the mana left over. Not to mention ADC's do not stick in the middle of fights. They poke and prod when they can from a distance here and there. Just as Talon can. But his pokes hurt more and are AoE.

Team fights happen quick late game. And in the heat of that time with the right positioning a champion like Talon could do the same as a champion like Ezreal or Kog'maw but cause even more damage overall. Especially ensuring clean up kill secures.

Talon has the ability to kite.
The ability to escape.
The ability to poke.
Harass.
Farm greatly. And more quickly than ADC's can.

I know the difference between assassins and ADC's. I've been playing long enough to know that. And why ADC's are what they are. And I've played ADC's plenty enough as well as every other role. And I have to admit. Talon working as an ADC focus has been working out easier for me than some ADC champs.


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

10-07-2012

If Graves ever hits his endgame, you'll automatically lose by virtue of being squishy melee.


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NinjaCalibur

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea De Penserhir View Post
If Graves ever hits his endgame, you'll automatically lose by virtue of being squishy melee.
What about GA + Frozen Heart. Or Frozen Heart + Thornmail as last 2 items?
Graves will most likely have a GA. But Talon's abilities can return from CD in the same amount of time and burst him back to death again.

Combined with LW, BT, BloodRazer/Phantom Dancers + Berserker Greaves? He matches Graves in Auto Attack damage and outmatches him in burst damage. Not to mention Talon's Q re-defines auto attack damage output. And resets his auto attacks.

Even in late game when a team comp has Assassins who no longer are viable in bursting down any enemy champ. Those assassins can still easily burst down AD and AP carries before they can even react. And Talon is considered an assassin. Not to mention he can close that gap and silence Graves in the same process. And become unseen for auto attacks from Graves all in the same one burst.

In the case scenario where teamfights ensue, Talon could get Graves long before Graves would be able to even begin his attack or escape. Speaking realistically here.


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Héró

Senior Member

10-07-2012

im an avid talon player. and i assure you he does not fall off late game. you should still be more tanky and have more ad than an adc.

personally i dont build any attack speed on talon , i dont think it fits him well since hes an ad caster.

with the way i set up, im a real rounded def talon with insane dmg

ninja tabs and hex drinker alone put you up there if u use armor and res runes.

core build should be brutilizer, hex drinker, blood thirster, last whisper. and your choice of boots and possibly another blood thirster of guradian angel for more def. (pretty much in order)


mostly arm pen reds , and a little ad mix in between.
(no arm pen then ur doing it wrong)

i use 2 specific runes pages for him

anti caster : 10 armor pen, 7 attack dmg , 27 +hp, 12 magic resist, 13+ magic resist at 18
(good mix of armpen dmg res and res per lvl)
( first item besides boots is usually hex drinker so u aps have no chance.)

not vs casters:15 armpen, 6 attack dmg, 19 armor.
(first item brutilizer for massive arm pen/cd redcution )

and
max rake first always.


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