Pantheon's E (Heartseeker Strike).

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ilililillillilil

Member

10-07-2012

Hi there so I would like for Pantheons Heartseeker Strike to be change.

How you might ask?

I would like the passive to change.

Passive: Pantheon's autoattacks gain 100% critical strike chance against targets whose current health is below 15% of their max health.

I would like the passive to no longer critical strike only while targets current health is <15%. I would like it change the proportion of damage that brings a targets health <15% is calculated as a critical strike.

Example: I throw my Spear Shot (Q) it hits for 200, my target has a total hp pool of 1000 and current hp of 250.

The Q would bring the target to 50hp and not kill him with the current passive. If he was 199hp it would critical strike (the original damage would also kill but we're ignoring this) and kill him.

For the new way, the first 51 damage of my 200damage would be calculated normally and the other 149 damage would count as critical damage (because <15% of 1000 = 149.9 repeating) so it would be 149 x 200% = 298 + original 51 damage for a total of 349damage.

This should also apply to auto attacks that proc this passive effect in such a way.



The question you should now be asking is why should this change happen?

Pantheon is basically gimped in combat when timing his last Q hit. Often what happens is we can tell they're just slightly above 15% and if we use our Q they wont die and the enemy kills us instead. But also in the same situation if we try to get one last hit to bring them below 15% hp so we can use our Q we also die. The advantage of the 15% critical strike only comes into play when we have enough hp to survive damage of those last milliseconds of a fight. Often fights for pantheon come down to the last few bars of hp (examples are Irelia, Darius, Jayce). I feel the design of the passive for E was meant to give us the advantage at low hp life situations but it often does not because of how it actually works.

I believe the design of pantheon could take huge advantage of this ability more than it does so now. This change would also help Pantheons late game problems (it won't fix them entirely).

I can't remember any other champion having a limiter on a ability that does more damage below a certain hp (I'm sure there are some and those should also change). I know the final point on damage tree does so maybe you could change how that works to work like this as well. That's just my thoughts.

I don't know whether this will make Pantheon too overpowered early game/mid game. I know really good Pantheon players can dominate those periods and this will only help them, but I also believe the design of Pantheon fits better with this idea than how E's passive works at the moment.

If you disagree, can you give GOOD reasons for why you disagree and maybe an alternative or modification to my idea so it would avoid the problem you describe yet still help pantheon become more Pantheony ?


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ilililillillilil

Member

10-07-2012

The next question you should ask is "What is Pantheon's role and does this really make him better as his role?"

So lets start with "What is Pantheon's role?"

Pantheon comes under two roles in Riot's choice selection menu of champions. Melee and Assassin. So lets define what a Melee's and Assassin's roles are.

(http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...ion_attributes)

Primary Attributes
Assassin: Champions with mediocre auto-attack and defense, who specialize in killing their enemies quickly. These champions usually are physical attackers and are DPS-based(Damage per second) or are AP(ability power) burst oriented. All of them have some form of invisibility or sudden ambushing ability. They should focus on items that will increase the damage they put out over a short period of time. In fights, they play a role as sneak attackers of key targets (like the Carry or the Mage), who pick off weak enemies and carry champions at the right time. They should not be played for frontal engagements in team fights since they lack good defense compared to fighters and tanks.

Secondary Attribute:
Melee: Champions that have a melee basic attack, so they have to be very close to their target in order to do damage. They have usually more health, armor and magic resistance than ranged champions as well as heals. Most Tanks and Fighters are melee combatants although a couple of Mages are also melee.

Other champions listed as Assassin are (from riot champion viewing page in their launcher): Ahri, Akali, Evelynn, Fizz, Irelia, Kassadin, Katarina, Kha'Zix, LeBlanc, Lee Sin, Nocturne, Poppy, Shaco, Talon, Twisted Fate, Vayne, Xin Zhao.

So we can see that Pantheon falls into the bursty, low defense doesn't like major engagements category. So this change to his E passive would fit perfect allowing him to be very bursty on carries. Because carries have low hp low defense, his Q would be much more useful for quickly assassinating them then escaping.

Pantheon also doesn't quite fit his role as an assassin because of how his passive works. Granting passive auto attack damage block, maybe a tweak to make him less defense more aggressive would really fix his late game problems. But he is also melee so he needs some extra defensive advantage to actually be able to engages and disengage quickly, but i think his passive could be tweaked to fix his late game drop off.


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Hawkhell

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Senior Member

10-07-2012

I loved Pantheon when I started this game, but after I got to level 30 and an elo I realized Pantheon gets stomped on too easily. I would love to see him change.


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ilililillillilil

Member

10-07-2012

thanks for the reply hawk. Yea i love pantheon to be nice if he was more viable late game.


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ilililillillilil

Member

10-07-2012

Just a bump to front page.


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Telamox

Senior Member

10-08-2012

You know that Heartseeker strike enables his Q to deal 150% damage when the targets are below 15% right? Unless I'm reading it wrong, your change and your example to Pantheon 'Certain Death' passive is basically:

"If they have less then 25% health, I can execute them."

Your example is 250/1000 health enemy (25%), and I hit them for 20% (200 damage) of their health, instead I want it to execute them, dealing 349 damage (35% of their health pool, or a damage increase of 15%). Pantheon's early game is already viable as it is, and he is designed in a manner similar to Renekton. If they snowball early (which they both can do), then the game ends 90% of the time in their favour. They are meant for quick games as a way to shutdown teams who favour carries and AP mages (since they rely on late-game farm to do their damage).

He has 2 damage spells (not counting his ultimate) and a gap closer stun. As for his 'roles':

He is an assassin that can quite easily burst people down, since Heartseeker Strike is double damage to champions and can cause so much damage early game that a q will finish them off, due to the execute attachment (150% of q). He has more armor and magic resist then a ranged assasin such as LB (assuming no items that give resistance/armor are bought), especially since LB does not get MR per level the way Panth does because he is melee.

Sometimes the Riot tags are wrongly applied, or their tags are correct according to what they have in mind for the champion, but their build isn't viable, and an alternative build is better.

Example: Kha'Zix is meant to be an assassin, and yet some people build him bruiser. It can work, even though Riot has not given him a 'Fighter' tag.

His passive allows him to block the following:
-standard auto-attack
-abilities that proc on-hit effects, such as Parrley, Blade Waltz and Mystic Shot.
-enhanced autoattacks (Siphoning Strike, the first hit of Ruthless Predator, and currently being tested are Mace of Spades and Savagery).
-turrent shots

Quite alot of things are negated by his passive, and considering that it is built by auto attacks and skill use, as well a full refresh with his W, you can block quite alot of shots over the course of your game.

I can understand you wanting an increase in pantheon's late-game viability, but he has the same issue as Renekton: you buff their late game, then their early game has to go down.

Riot would (hopefully) avoid making a champion who has a very strong early and late game.

Edit: Found the damage of heartseeker stirke against champions:

Physical Damage Per Strike Versus Champions: 26 / 46 / 66 / 86 / 106 (+1.2 per bonus attack damage)

Maximum Physical Damage Versus Champions: 78 / 138 / 198 / 258 / 318 (+3.6 per bonus attack damage)


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ilililillillilil

Member

10-08-2012

Hi Telamox

Thanks for you reply. You come up with some valid points. let me address what i think is most important first off. Now i took this from league of legends wikipedia page on critical strikes

"Critical strike damage affects the amount of bonus damage that a champion's critical strike deals. All champions begin with +100% bonus damage on a critical strike, thus doing 200% damage. This statistic stacks additively. "

So firstly it is 200% damage not 150% so yes only really strengthens your idea about the "if they're below 25% i can execute them".

But it's really all in the maths.

Assuming we take a person as you mention with 250hp/1000hp. Would heart seeker strike be an automatic execute. Well no, because you are forgetting a very important detail. The more hp they have above 15% of their hp the less damage the spear can critical strike with.

So lets take the man with 250hp

lets say my Q hits for 200 and doesn't critical strike (functioning as it does now). Then the target lives. He is now 50hp which is 5% of 1000hp. My next Q would critical for 400 meaning a kill but also 350wasted damage.

The new way the first 51 damage scales without the critical strike and the last 149 scales with the critical strike of 200% so yes 298 then + 51 for a total of 349total damage which is a kill with a total wasted amount of 99damage. So yes 200 vs 349 is an increase of about 75% but for only this specific example.

Lets take another example. Assume this one is building tank. Damage also calculated after armor etc for simplicity.

500/2000 hp.
Spear hits for 300.

<15% of 2000 = <300
So the first 200 damage of the spear works out at normal not critical value. the last 100 works at 200% so it does an addition 100 damage. So i hit for 400 not 300. This is only an increase of 33.3% not 75% or a x1.333 not x1.75.

So the increase in damage fluctuates depending on total hp and the gap between <15% and their hp At the moment. I feel this is a warrented change because pantheon needs to be bursty late game as he really no escape like most other assassins do. Sure he can do a boss initiate but that's not his role. He gets focused too easily in team fights and this is why he drops off. So increasing his burst potential by changing this would make him fit his assassin role better.

Of course you can build many champs differently to how Riot thinks they should be built, but he's designed as an assassin melee and riot has designed him to fit this role not off tank, not tank, not support. So him doing his role better (which quite frankly is needed to fix his late game) should be a good thing shouldn't it. Of course this makes him stronger earlier game but a slight tweak to off the damage increase would all that would be needed to keep his early game the same but late game stronger.

So i guess the argument comes down to this question. What is Pantheons role? I define Pantheon's role by how riot does. At the moment he's not as good as other assassins late game and probably pretty even with them for his early and mid game, this means he gets picked less. Therefore some upgrade to him without altering how he is he is played too significantly is justified.


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Nishaven90

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Any buff to Pantheon would be great, considering that he gets counter by a single cloth armour/ninja tabi.


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ilililillillilil

Member

10-09-2012

just bumping.


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xpxpx

Senior Member

10-09-2012

I like to think that it would be better if you amount of health you can crit from increases per rank in the skill, like say a base of 15% and then is scale at a rate of like 2.5% per rank, maxing at 25% health remaining for automatic criticals.