The Lore That You Deserve

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Cerubois

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
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Riiiiiight.

Well, you've done nothing but insult me in this big long-winded post. Seriously, that's all you've done.

You have nothing to back up your points except your opinions. This is exactly what I have, and yet you feel you're superior to me, enough so that you must degrade me in order to be "right."

I don't do these kinds of debates. I'm done. You can call me a fool all you want, but I'll keep my optimism. It's much more preferable than ignorant cynicism.


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Eserine

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
Riiiiiight.

Well, you've done nothing but insult me in this big long-winded post. Seriously, that's all you've done.

You have nothing to back up your points except your opinions. This is exactly what I have, and yet you feel you're superior to me, enough so that you must degrade me in order to be "right."
This comment packaged together with your assertion that players are "unthinkingly" criticizing Riot leads me to believe you have read neither the player comments in the Katarina revision AMA thread, the Soraka/Warwick revision AMA thread, or the General Discussion threads began as a backlash to the actions of the lore department that highlight a number of contradictions and stylistic problems with the alterations. I'm not surprised you have no answer to my claims, I don't think you even have any idea what I am writing about honestly, you seem to have entered this conversation totally unprepared. Did you even read the introductory post to this thread where I brought forward and parodied an example of the lore issues? If this was just "opinion" what answer can you present to the problem of the power levels of average humans, or any other flaw brought up in these threads by players?

FURTHERMORE in address to my critique (if you weren't just skimming it) why would you agree to what I wrote if I was wasn't correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
You're not wrong in your opinion
Hmmmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
I don't do these kinds of debates. I'm done. You can call me a fool all you want, but I'll keep my optimism. It's much more preferable than ignorant cynicism.
Cheerio!


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Quiksilvur

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Senior Member

10-08-2012

Uhm... I'mma go out on a limb here to say that I actually have supported the lore reworks. Were there parts that didn't satisfy me? Yeah, Viktor OOC bugged me. Katarina's passion wasn't really much of a big deal to me personally, but I can understand the negative sentiment.

Riot acted on that. I don't have evidence to really complain because I personally like the reworks. Warwick's conceptual and thematic essence is there, and his new cunning manhunter tempered/threatened with primal bestiality fits him perfectly. (His chemistry background felt like little more than a footnote to me, but to each his own.)

Soraka's rework keeps with the theme of a deity falling prey to basic human and mortal emotions, except this time, it was her naivete and trust. Thematics are there, and I think that's the important thing; keeping with the essence of the character.

And all these things are opinions. I think that your post, willingly or unknowingly, is belittling Riot and those who actually felt that the reworks were well done, and that really limits the scope of support or feedback you may receive. Cerubois' optimism is the way to go, I think.

This is a massive revamp in progress, not just random reworks. I think some are being misled into thinking the situation is the latter because of the seemingly slow progress.


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Cerubois

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Since you seem to have missed the point, I never said you were wrong. I never insulted you like you did to me. I said you have an opinion, as do I. I simply said you're overreacting.

The only reason I even responded here is because you quoted me from another thread, and ridiculed my opinion. My advice to you is to lay off the ego and treat people with more respect, especially those that bring you this game and lore, since you apparently care for it.
Not every revolution has to be harsh and violent. If you were to actually make suggestions instead of parodies and mockeries, maybe you'd get more attention from the people you're trying to influence.


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Eserine

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksilvur View Post
Uhm... I'mma go out on a limb here to say that I actually have supported the lore reworks. Were there parts that didn't satisfy me? Yeah, Viktor OOC bugged me. Katarina's passion wasn't really much of a big deal to me personally, but I can understand the negative sentiment.

Riot acted on that. I don't have evidence to really complain because I personally like the reworks. Warwick's conceptual and thematic essence is there, and his new cunning manhunter tempered/threatened with primal bestiality fits him perfectly. (His chemistry background felt like little more than a footnote to me, but to each his own.)

Soraka's rework keeps with the theme of a deity falling prey to basic human and mortal emotions, except this time, it was her naivete and trust. Thematics are there, and I think that's the important thing; keeping with the essence of the character.
Claiming in essence that Warwick's entire past life before transformation was a footnote seems to me like claiming that Annie's dead parents are a footnote, or the existence of Leblanc's secret society is a footnote. These have been the prime determinants of the life-course of the character, but on the other hand you seem to consider Warwick's thematic essence to be doing the "Thriller" dance and chewing on things? This fails to differentiate the wolfman monster present in LoL from countless past videogames, films, and media. It is overhashed and dull, whereas before players were being offered a unique kafkaesque take on international warfare we now have a villain drinking a potion with "horrifying" results for the 30 millionth time. I would have found this uninspired as an eight year old! In fact I would have found this uninspired as an eight year old growing up in a underdeveloped country without television or internet access!

In Soraka's new lore the stars do not cast her out for her trust or naivety, she called down burning plasma globes upon the faces of mortals in wrath and vengeance for hurting someone she emotionally connected with, although in her "celestial power" she likely could have healed him after the brigands left him to die in the road and never had to give up her anima of divinity... oh wait, that would make too much sense! She could have just kept healing him as he was stabbed in fact, and the confederates would give away their allegiance when they wouldn't get spooked and run away from the bizarre unstabbable man! Wouldn't their arms get tired of stabbing after six or seven hours? Why did Soraka not respond to the atrocities and war-crimes of the Ionian invasion? Does someone who would watch that happening to her people and shrug and dance around some trees for a few months really keep the original "essence" of Soraka?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksilvur View Post
And all these things are opinions. I think that your post, willingly or unknowingly, is belittling Riot and those who actually felt that the reworks were well done, and that really limits the scope of support or feedback you may receive.
Willingly. I don't care what support or feedback I receive. I regard the people who enjoy the new lore and praise the lore team for it as the same sort of people who prop up this industry, and dozens like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksilvur View Post
Cerubois' optimism is the way to go, I think.

This is a massive revamp in progress, not just random reworks. I think some are being misled into thinking the situation is the latter because of the seemingly slow progress.
Slow progress is a mercy with this sort of lore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
Since you seem to have missed the point, I never said you were wrong. I never insulted you like you did to me. I said you have an opinion, as do I. I simply said you're overreacting.

The only reason I even responded here is because you quoted me from another thread, and ridiculed my opinion.
We agree that I have called your positions foolish and suggested that you brown-nose. We agree that you feel insulted by these remarks. If you are waiting for an apology there isn't going to be one, and if you are working up to challenging me to a duel I wait patiently for your formal declaration, after which I will choose the weapon of reasoned forum exchange- which we both know you are not well suited for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
My advice to you is to lay off the ego and treat people with more respect, especially those that bring you this game and lore, since you apparently care for it.

Not every revolution has to be harsh and violent. If you were to actually make suggestions instead of parodies and mockeries, maybe you'd get more attention from the people you're trying to influence.
I'm not trying to influence anyone, if you had actually read this thread you may have noted a lengthy discourse on how the Riot Lore Team is beyond all help from players. Would you like a specific example of this? I'm afraid that you will have to read it.

It is my (repeated) suggestion that the lore team be fired, but barring that precipitance I am content to visit here to play Cassandra between reading research papers until the tournament foul-ups are finally corrected. Is suggesting that I am rude going to alter the "opinions" of players reading this thread who can easily discern that the lore is badly composed? I don't see what you further have to gain from worrying yourself about the subject having written a complete account of how you feel about this, why not go write more Runeterotica (or whatever your preferred genre is) and then start a new thread about how unbelievably intelligent and attractive Skribbles and 20thCenturyFaux seem when the sunlight catches in their hair just right?


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Dracorya

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Honestly Eserine, your continuing condescending attitude towards anyone who doesn't agree with you is vexing and not worth anyone's time. Its clear we're not going to change your mind and you sure as heck aren't going to change ours.

So just drop it.


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Eserine

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracorya View Post
Honestly Eserine, your continuing condescending attitude towards anyone who doesn't agree with you is vexing and not worth anyone's time. Its clear we're not going to change your mind and you sure as heck aren't going to change ours.

So just drop it.
Drop what? Responding to comments regarding what I have written in the thread that I started? If you would like me to stop responding I suggest that you (in the plural) stop commenting. It is getting in the way of my holiday internet shopping with the money I am not going to give to Riot Creative this year (Is a foam zombie horde more frightening then a skeletal necro-giant?)


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Quiksilvur

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-09-2012

I understand that this is your thread, and you are free to respond as you please, however condescending you may be.

That said, if we disagree with you, that doesn't mean you should belittle us. Is there a reason at all for the condescension? Is it part of some master plot to get the Riot Lore team to magically bow and kiss your feet?

I don't wanna come off as mean or rude myself, but the attitude seem kinda arbitrary. What do you hope to accomplish?


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Lady Howl

Member

10-09-2012

I am probably wrong, but i believe Eserine is attempting to accomplish some form of Riot response by responding in what many deem a rude manner, but others like myself would deem an defensive one.

Meaning, if enough people can not prove him wrong, and he continually speaks 'frankly' enough people might complain about this thread, therefore warranting attention, thus alerting the 2 week sleeping lore team.

As i am still new to this game, but old enough to have fallen in lore love with WW's old lore. I have the least evidence to support this claim as i do not know Eserine. But in my experience in other forums, if the community only makes suggestions it tends to get overlooked. But when a few individuals take a firm stance, and are not willing to back down mods/development team members are forced to review a particular topic.

Personally, i am happy someone is willing to do this for WW. [I know its not just about WW] I have seen a few other threads that state the new lore is bad, but nothing too effective has been derived from them. Perhaps this approach might work.


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Eserine

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksilvur View Post
I understand that this is your thread, and you are free to respond as you please, however condescending you may be.

That said, if we disagree with you, that doesn't mean you should belittle us. Is there a reason at all for the condescension? Is it part of some master plot to get the Riot Lore team to magically bow and kiss your feet?

I don't wanna come off as mean or rude myself, but the attitude seem kinda arbitrary. What do you hope to accomplish?
To break this down for you, recently the Senior Concept Artist IronStylus entered into a conversation with players about sexism in GD where he revealed that in the past he has defended artistic decisions to the community that he hasn't personally agreed with. Additionally, while being aware of the strong player feelings on this subject, he hasn't raised criticism of his fellow artists when they violate these positions "out of respect for the hard work they do", or raise issue with aesthetic problems he sees in their work. He instead chooses to quietly lead by example in creating champions like Diana and then making a big deal about it on the forums to players, while acknowledging the limited efficacy of this methodology because he only is called upon to work on a few characters every year and also citing cases where designs that he once approved of were "stripped" (where originally Sejuani was covered in 'a ton of badass armor').

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
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Originally Posted by Rilgon View Post
Err, I may have mis-remembered the post, but were you not specifically the person that claimed that female champions "needed to be" hypersexualized so you (the general you, not you the individual) could "tell they were female", and cited Kayle as a bad example?
I didn't say hyper-sexualized, I made a goofy comment about proportions and read in-game which I have since said were dumb. I was in fact defending decisions that I actually didn't agree with but felt the team still deserved credit for pulling off a difficult champion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
We actually had a ridiculously heavy armored version of the Dark Rider Sejuani, it was epic. I however was working on other stuff when that was getting worked on and somehow we ended up stripping off tons of armor. I have no idea why.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
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Originally Posted by Sudieken View Post
I'm gonna have to call you out on this one, parrot. The new Soraka art really upset me the first time I saw her. She looks NOTHING like the old Soraka. To me, the new one is just really "bleh".

Don't get me wrong, the model, the animations, the particles, etc. are all top-notch.

I just feel like her facial features just aren't as distinguished at all, really. I used to be able to picture her as having a lot of wisdom, and having a nurturing, warm personality just from looking at her splash and hearing her voice.

She looks like a teenager now. That's all I really have to say. I don't get that vibe anymore. She's just...there.
Yeah, when I talk about Soraka I am referring ONLY to the in-game model. I do have some issues with the splash but that's a department that has a handle on the situation and has made great strides recently in quality.

They deserve nothing but the highest of praise with the task they are tackling in things that aren't even widely known externally. They deserve a world of credit and I wish people would consider how hard they work, how monumental their task is, how passionate they are and how brilliant their work is executed. They will continue to iterate just like us all. Everyone needs to give them room to grow and settle. They need to be given some slack.

The last thing I need to bug them about is that I think the bridge of her nose needs to be thicker. Those guys are powerhouses and I don't want to screw with them =)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
You're killing me with the numbers.. I'm an artist for god's sake..

So I won't be defensive, I'll be appropriately combative.. Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea how involved I've been in this conversation? A while. What have I done when I hear this feedback? I make a champion that incorporates all that feedback and I make it A REALLY BIG DEAL. Search "Embrace the Heresy" on google and see that hullabaloo. What do I do when I feel we've gone a bit astray? I talk to my producers, our art director, and my fellow concept artists. I take action. Not in a way that is imposing, rude, or invasive, but in a way that I hope challenges us to think a bit different and encourage our artists to keep crushing, to keep making amazing artwork.

Do I feel we are experiencing the same systemic issues with female champion representation as we have in the past? Absolutely.
...

This non-confrontational and disingenuous posturing is called GROUPTHINK, and in this thread I am attempting to draw a circle around the same behaviors occurring for the lore creation process, both within the people who work for Riot, and for the players in this forum who want to be people who work for Riot who keep praising terrible storytelling.

The author, game designer, and critic Yahtzee Croshaw once wrote "The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't”, and that has struck me through experience as being quite true.

So while you claim that I seem "mean or rude" by not instead beginning a thread to make friends with all the players in this forum with free e-hugs and cheerful sentiments about their eventual job prospects, I see fawning players (as well as tasteless and short-sighted players), even when they have the most polite and accommodating of intentions, to be far worse for the game quality of LoL.

Thus there is no "master plot to get the Riot Lore team to magically bow and kiss my feet" as you put it, I am merely sharing a knowing and despairing head-shake with all the players who actually care about the game's ultimate potential, at the expense of the other players and Rioters who do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Howl View Post
I am probably wrong, but i believe Eserine is attempting to accomplish some form of Riot response by responding in what many deem a rude manner, but others like myself would deem an defensive one.

Meaning, if enough people can not prove him wrong, and he continually speaks 'frankly' enough people might complain about this thread, therefore warranting attention, thus alerting the 2 week sleeping lore team.

As i am still new to this game, but old enough to have fallen in lore love with WW's old lore. I have the least evidence to support this claim as i do not know Eserine. But in my experience in other forums, if the community only makes suggestions it tends to get overlooked. But when a few individuals take a firm stance, and are not willing to back down mods/development team members are forced to review a particular topic.

Personally, i am happy someone is willing to do this for WW. [I know its not just about WW] I have seen a few other threads that state the new lore is bad, but nothing too effective has been derived from them. Perhaps this approach might work.
I am not new to this game, Riot doesn't listen to player suggestions.