The Lore That You Deserve

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Eserine

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KuzAnn View Post
To be perfectly honest, I was laughing through your whole post. But you went too far with Possibility 3. I think you might end up getting banned for that. :/
I do not know (or care) what Kitae looks like or if she has eaten paint chips in the past, with Possibility 3 I merely attempt to characterize the toxic nature of her ideas to the lore continuity. Her work in Mass Effect has been criticized as homophobic and bigoted, she (unfortunately) arrived to Riot under a rain of death threats formed out of an anger and indignation I still do not find unjustified being directed at her for a speech she gave on DLC and the role of player involvement:

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“Game developers are not evil… we just want to release awesome stuff. So players, please give us a chance, judge our games based on what they are, judge the DLC based on what it is, and stop thinking you’ra producer and telling us when and where we should be building our content.”
furthermore I don't think that she writes or ideates well (or creatively) beyond her ability to present a false image of self-directed industriousness in holding "serious meetings" to form various "mission statements", and of course in her similar reassurances to players that we are all "seriously" being paid attention to. Bureaucracy and satisficing can together generate a large body of stupid flow charts, but writing these into prose form is not lore.

If Riot wishes to ban me for these comments, ban away, by all means. In the hundred logical recommendations on game improvement I've made in the past year in the forums, on a dozen different facets of the system, RIOT has perhaps accidentally implemented seven of them- only after independently arriving at the same conclusions that I did in my posts entire seasons later. Xypherous commonly claims that constructive questions or ideas from players are too hard to find (but it was Riot that designed the entire forum structure to obscure such contributions in favor of light-hearted and innocuous banter), yet in bringing up ideas for positive changes directly to a member of Riot (as anyone in the lore forum well knows) one is given either silence, consternation, false promises, or an explanation that "well actually this isn't my specific department", without any further clarification.

This is because the forums were actually made as a form of top-down opinion containment put in place to control customer emotions. As the champion concepts forum might demonstrate on a wider scale, Riot doesn't actually welcome detailed player input (beyond seizing ownership rights through their forum user agreement if any player ever attempts to make a new game from what they propose). They give us these threads like a parent gives a toddler some Crayons so that we can doodle for a while and stop throwing temper tantrums. This holds back the entire company, but serves the ultimate purpose of ingratiating the egotistical members of the development teams (except in the cases where unavoidable backlash has erupted), and further provides the illusion of dialogue and collaboration so that players remain invested in the universe and spend more money.

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Originally Posted by DrTemptragon View Post
While I agree in general that Lore quality is descending, I feel that not only is your tone dismissive, you're not putting in any effort into understanding the changes and why they're of benefit to the Lore as a whole.
Aren't I?

I've also asked dozens of questions in the Warwick and Soraka AMA, and none of them have been answered by Riot or by players, nor what I see to be very important questions from other concerned players.

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Originally Posted by DrTemptragon View Post
Face it, Soraka's original Lore was flat-out stupid. She, despite being nigh-omnipotent, cursed Warwick with a form that made him physically more able? Warwick underwent a massive physcological change when transformed because why not?
As is pointed out many times by players on this topic, Warwick in the old lore could act out his cruel impulses upon individuals, but could never again pose the threat he did before as a man of learning since he lost control.

he underwent a "physcological" change when he transformed because HIS BRAIN TISSUE WAS TRANSFORMED! Humans experiencing the alterations of tumors or pipes change in their personality and intellectual capabilities, Soraka likewise deformed Warwick's entire ventromedial prefrontal cortex, expanded his olfactory bulbs, shifted his anterior cingulate cortex, and expanded the somatosensory connectivites and hisbrainstem; or in non-neuroscience-speak she morphed him into a motherf___ wolfman. Are you sure that it was the lore that was "flat-out stupid"?

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Originally Posted by DrTemptragon View Post
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Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Warwick must rip out the heart of Soraka... so that he can become powerful enough to rip out the heart of Soraka?
This is dumb rhetoric and a blatent and deliberate misunderstanding of the new Lore.

Yes, Celestial Soraka was sufficiently powerful that she could've bested everyone else you mentioned later on, including living fountains of magic like Xerath.
and yet human Warwick was able to bring her to her knees using nothing more than a lame story, a corpse, and some drunk mercenaries from the local tavern. With such purported deviousness (before his inept failure) there would be no need for Warwick to ever rely upon another source of power, especially one that would cause such a radical and debilitating modification to his person.

You seem to be suggesting that there are entities roaming Runeterra of unimaginable strength, never before seen in the storyline, yet none of them seem to warrant mention as being of specific interest to the scientists of Zaun in the lore background (wouldn't this be important?), nor (now being able to create Warwick monsters with the ingredients Warwick collected), why these scientists would even need such materials when they can make armies of Mundo-pumped sentient werewolves and reanimate their bodies like Protoss Dragoons if the troops should ever fall in battle (Urgwickdos).

Further, Warwick only needs Soraka's heart to "stabilize" his transformation, so it seems by taking the incomplete potion, according to your reasoning, Warwick (or anyone else ever drinking a Warwick potion) is now more powerful than all other characters or creatures contained within the game, since by design he alone can "take on" these oddly unmentioned beings of supreme glorious destruction, where weaker individuals can't.

I propose instead that the lore team never considered this because they are unprofessional.

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Originally Posted by DrTemptragon View Post
The rest of your post descends into logical fallicies and assertions with no backup or evidence.
almost as though I was mocking the "blatent" inconsistencies forcing players to contort their explanations, from what you are about to propose is simpler and more elegant form of lore:

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Originally Posted by DrTemptragon View Post
However, she couldn't do that without being kicked out of her Celestial Awesomeness Club. This part of the Lore hasn't changed.

All of the new Lore does exactly what Riot want it to do; opens up more possibilities in the world and makes the characters more consistant.

Right now, that's a bad thing, because it means each story has essentially a huge bundle of loose ends. But so far they've fixed their obvious and debilitating flaws (Jayce's original Lore) and I have faith that the plan they're working through will have benefits and help soothe these concerns.

It did screw up WW's relation with Singed, though.
Was the old lore perfect? Not at all, it wasn't by accident that I chose a cracked and faded image of the Caucasian Jesus to symbolize its evolved form. However in one stroke the lore department has painted over the lines to redefine Zaun, Ionia, the Noxian invasion, and even what it means to be a normal Runeterran, and we the readers are left with a blurred mess.

Your claim that Riot fixes things is wrong. Players asked that Jayce's lore be changed so that Viktor wasn't portrayed as a villain and they did it anyway. Players asked that Warwick not fail in an ambush to take Soraka's life essence and they did it anyway. Players asked that Lux's ultimate not be changed in name and they did it anyway. We are afforded no opportunity to defuse the errors Riot makes, and Riot doesn't care.

Your claim of "faith" in their ultimate Project-X that will fix everything likewise mirrors the faith of players who were expecting the release of the Magma Chamber map. Similarly the champion development team made a void creature called "Omen" once, who at the end of the development cycle was voted by half the company to be a bad fit for the game, so it was never included. You have no guarantee of any wider lore ever coming out, and vitally the character biographies serve as the foundation for any further storytelling, they will be the first lore most players come into contact with, and if they contain heavy cracks and "fallicies" as you spell it, the rest of the lore will likewise be flawed and shaky.

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Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
I'm flattered to be quoted so out of context, and countered with something even more out of context.

You're not wrong in your opinion, but you're exaggerating a lot. New lore might not be up to par with the old one. It might not be as complex and 'realisitic'. But we have yet to see where they're taking it. Perhaps they want LoL to be more streamlined and simplified, as that's what the game itself is meant to be in the first place.

Ima hold off complaining until I know all the facts.
You're holding off complaining Cerubois? Gee I wonder why:

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Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
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Originally Posted by Xpert Rigged View Post
Kitae, are there any chances of a League of Legends novel? Though Halo started as a simple shooter, the Universe that it uses is very rich in part because of the tie-in novels. Could not LoL take a similar approach? I personally could tell you that I definitely would read a League of Legends novel if one existed.
I'd like to turn Guiding Light into one, if permitted. Would be cool to be published under Riot.
You know that quote boxes with little blue arrows lead back to the original conversation where they were written right? By my actions in posting your comment with the post indication number included anyone can easily read your original statement, which to me seems to carry the exact same context since I copied the entire post you made. Were you not responding to calls to revert the lore? I notice you don't clarify the actual context you feel you were attempting to respond within, or how my criticism of your response was further decontextualized from the subject at hand.


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Eserine

Senior Member

10-07-2012

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Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
I mean, lore changes aren't on the level of century-old monkey Jesus ... the old lore is still there. We can still go back and read it. It's not current canon, but it was canon at one point because it was "Riot published lore."
As we can still view now-unavailable skins that were created early on, but not in any easy game-connected way that doesn't involve combing through an assortment of fan pages on Google in various states of coding disrepair or linguistic non-compatibility. When and if Riot replace the JoJ it's probably not going to be hosted in the client anymore, and thus most new players will never learn of it at all, just like most players have never heard of "Union Jack Fiddlesticks".

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Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Rioters know better than to engage in discussions with angry deaf people. We don't.
By "deaf" I take it you mean unreasonable. Yet players are attempting to reach Riot with reasoned arguments that Riot fails to counter with any reasoning. It is my advice to players to stop attempting to do this, because Riot Lore Team lacks the capacity or even will to appreciate constructive criticism.

Tangentially, the Lux/Ezreal quote you cited from Kitae in your post contained a smiley face because Cerubois was referencing a well-publicized "favorite ship" among the lore team (or in other words Cerubois was sucking up to Runaan). So that was a bad example of what you were attempting to demonstrate. I only mention this to bring up the fact that Trey Parker and Matt Stone recently dedicated an entire episode of their television show to the prevalent racist story element of assortative mating that is likewise discouraged by players in the forums and still encouraged frequently by members of the lore department as another example of forum futility.


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KuzAnn

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTemptragon View Post
Face it, Soraka's original Lore was flat-out stupid. She, despite being nigh-omnipotent, cursed Warwick with a form that made him physically more able? Warwick underwent a massive physcological change when transformed because why not?
Sorry to have to ask this, but exactly where in Soraka's old lore does it state that she is "nigh-omnipotent"? Omnipotence or even near omnipotence isn't a power I would automatically assign to someone who is evolved or even ascended.

I used to think the same thing you do about Soraka's old lore, but I pondered it a bit more in recent months and realized that the mistake Soraka made in her old lore showed that even she, a being who is supposedly "divine" and overwhelmingly good, could fall prey to primal human emotions such as anger and hatred and lost part of her power because of that. Mistakes are what can result from allowing yourself to give in to blind anger. And you know what? It made her more easy to relate to for me, as I'm pretty sure that we've all had times in our lives when we wanted to do something horrible to someone out of anger or hatred, whether they deserve it or not.

In that same vein, Warwick joining the League to get back at Soraka made more sense. For Soraka, seeing the thing she'd changed and empowered every time they both step into a match would be a slap in the face, a cruel reminder of the mistake she made while allowing herself to be ruled by darker emotions and motivations. Every time he steps into a match with her, Warwick is getting back at Soraka for what she did to him. There's also the fact that Warwick, in fighting for the enemies of Ionia--which were currently occupying the southern provinces from what I understand--would potentially thwart any political leeway that Soraka tried to win for it. And that part of Warwick's motivation even had tangible payoff for him: Ionia lost the first match against Noxus thanks in part to Warwick and Singed, who thwarted Soraka on the Fields and never let up.

Warwick joining the League in his new bio doesn't make sense. What? Does he expect the League to let him take Soraka's heart if he gets enough rep with them? We all know the League would never let that happen because they'd be losing not one, but two champions, not to mention all the political backlash that would take place if that ever happened. And even if Warwick managed to kill her outside a match, well, how does he expect to get away with killing an extremely important "employee" of the most powerful organization in the known world?

And @Dracorya, I think you're blowing this topic out of proportion. This is hardly pitchfork and torch waving in comparison to what happened when Jayce's lore was first released and the first Katarina rewrite was presented.


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fortide

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post

Tangentially, the Lux/Ezreal quote you cited from Kitae in your post contained a smiley face because Cerubois was referencing a well-publicized "favorite ship" among the lore team (or in other words Cerubois was sucking up to Runaan). So that was a bad example of what you were attempting to demonstrate. I only mention this to bring up the fact that Trey Parker and Matt Stone recently dedicated an entire episode of their television show to the prevalent racist story element of assortative mating that is likewise discouraged by players in the forums and still encouraged frequently by members of the lore department as another example of forum futility.
Don't you mean Riven/Lux? Considering Cerubois has asked if that specific pairing would be canon and is a huge Riven/Lux shipper...

On the other hand, I feel like the lore is different, if maybe a little worse. I know the rewrites are an attempt to explore the character's backstory better (which in that case, why not bring back League Judgements? I know for sure if Lux didn't get one, people would dismiss her as the superficial cheerleader type) I liked Soraka's old lore mainly because she turned something that was supposed to be bad for WW, into something that actually benefited him. I liked how she ****ed up and WW got away with it. However, that doesn't mean the new lore that's coming out is all bad. Diana's was good, though that was because there was more effort put into her. Rengar's was also pretty decent. Syndra's was ehh, but the AMA made up for it.

But really, they should bring back League Judgments. They were pretty much the biggest reason I got into lore due to how much information (and well written for the most part) they gave about the character.


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Eserine

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortide View Post
Don't you mean Riven/Lux? Considering Cerubois has asked if that specific pairing would be canon and is a huge Riven/Lux shipper...
Indeed fortide, thank you! I misread this, although it doesn't alter the larger point I was attempting to make or change my opinion of Cerubois.


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Cerubois

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
You're holding off complaining Cerubois? Gee I wonder why:

You know that quote boxes with little blue arrows lead back to the original conversation where they were written right? By my actions in posting your comment with the post indication number included anyone can easily read your original statement, which to me seems to carry the exact same context since I copied the entire post you made. Were you not responding to calls to revert the lore? I notice you don't clarify the actual context you feel you were attempting to respond within, or how my criticism of your response was further decontextualized from the subject at hand.
First off, I'm not holding off complaining because I expect to have my fanfiction published. If that were the case, I'd be pushing Riot to hold off touching Lux, Riven, and everything to do with Ionia and the war. I've covered a lot of material in my story which will likely be affected by the changes in some way.
For the most part, I'm not too worried. If they decide to change something that effectively nullifies a part of my story, then my fanfiction becomes... fanfiction. Oh no.
The hopes I have of it being published are just that. Hopes. Dreams. Probably a 0.1% chance. If it happens, I'll be overjoyed. If not, then I'm happy to have just written it.

Now, I replied to that other thread because people were petitioning against change without really thinking about it. As a writer, I find this disrespectful to the writers at Riot. It seems to be commonplace now to revolt against companies because "I didn't like it as much as I'd hoped."
They're working on it. Writing takes time. Especially in such a large and fast-moving environment. When the champion design team is bringing out a new champion or two every month, the lore team has to figure out where to put them in the story. I can only imagine how tough this is, and can understand why they can't really say anything about it yet. One new idea could change the entire thing.

Also, the story you've linked to begin your post has nothing to do with this situation at all. I thought that much was obvious, thus why I didn't feel the need to expand on it. This isn't about an old lady vigilant trying to restore a painting without permission. This is Riot's lore team touching up their lore to fit their needs. Call me an optimist, but I hope to see the day when we actually get the whole story and say "Oh. I get it now. Good job Riot."

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Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Tangentially, the Lux/Ezreal quote you cited from Kitae in your post contained a smiley face because Cerubois was referencing a well-publicized "favorite ship" among the lore team (or in other words Cerubois was sucking up to Runaan).
As far as I know, no Red has endorsed Lux/Riven. I don't 'suck up' to people.


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Ask the Herald

Member

10-08-2012

I don't know about any of you, but a member of a development team's primary justification for low-quality storytelling being "We want YOU to come up with it" is a cheap and retarded cop-out.

When you're part of a group that creates a product for others, your damn job is to ensure that the product is as high in quality as you can possibly make it.

Regardless of purpose or intent, a product must be able to appeal to everyone, no matter what.

The Lore Team has become nothing but a bunch of brain-dead junkies tickling each other's asses while watching episodes of the Regular Show on Cartoon Network.


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Eserine

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
First off, I'm not holding off complaining because I expect to have my fanfiction published. If that were the case, I'd be pushing Riot to hold off touching Lux, Riven, and everything to do with Ionia and the war. I've covered a lot of material in my story which will likely be affected by the changes in some way.
For the most part, I'm not too worried. If they decide to change something that effectively nullifies a part of my story, then my fanfiction becomes... fanfiction. Oh no.
The hopes I have of it being published are just that. Hopes. Dreams. Probably a 0.1% chance. If it happens, I'll be overjoyed. If not, then I'm happy to have just written it.
Your "Hopes. Dreams." put criticism of the lore team in direct conflict with your stated self-interest. Humans change their behavior even for events of extreme unprobability (buying lottery tickets, praying for severely losing sports teams, writing letters of marriage proposal to famous celebrities, etc.), so while you can claim that you are impartial, most might view such claims as uncredible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
Now, I replied to that other thread because people were petitioning against change without really thinking about it. As a writer, I find this disrespectful to the writers at Riot. It seems to be commonplace now to revolt against companies because "I didn't like it as much as I'd hoped."
It seems that many players have thought about it a lot actually, and beyond us not liking the new lore, we cite examples where it is actually broken.

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Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
They're working on it. Writing takes time. Especially in such a large and fast-moving environment. When the champion design team is bringing out a new champion or two every month, the lore team has to figure out where to put them in the story. I can only imagine how tough this is, and can understand why they can't really say anything about it yet. One new idea could change the entire thing.
The lore team has released four paragraphs every two weeks. These paragraphs are bad, and players like Renektonbot (as a single man/croc) release more content, of a better quality, in direct parallel. He and other fanwriters can imagine how tough this is, and they are still able to do it better than the Riot lore team. Is "Project X" going to be superior to these current changes somehow? I doubt you have evidence to support such a claim.

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Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
Also, the story you've linked to begin your post has nothing to do with this situation at all. I thought that much was obvious, thus why I didn't feel the need to expand on it. This isn't about an old lady vigilant trying to restore a painting without permission. This is Riot's lore team touching up their lore to fit their needs.
The lore team no longer exists as it once did, Babaganoush left, Kitae was introduced as the new leader, and several new teammates joined (whose principle purpose seems to be squawking approval of bad ideas to form enough votes for a consensus). On doing rewrites I am not aware that they ever asked the "permission" of the community or solicited help from individual fan-specialists in improving the lore, they just went vigilante and began smearing a new base coat over everything. Is Warwick's new story a "touch up"? Nothing remain of the former Warwick but his name, and I think that his name was only a screen-grab after the original lore team Googled "crazy evil scientist" and read about Shiro Ishii. That character had a distinct role to play in the story-universe, but now he has been destroyed, and Singed is left to single-handedly do and be everything rational for Zaun (except that Singed is also insane, thus Zaun is left a box of harmless broken toys).

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Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
Call me an optimist, but I hope to see the day when we actually get the whole story and say "Oh. I get it now. Good job Riot."
I call you a fool. Bad lore begets bad lore, and when the "big reveal" comes I want you to think back to that painting of Jesus, Cerubois, and recall how you didn't think my metaphor was apt.

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Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
As far as I know, no Red has endorsed Lux/Riven. I don't 'suck up' to people.
This has been corrected in further comments, although I leave it to the readers of this thread to judge your true intentions in defending Riot so adamantly. Bootlick or Deep Believer, I still disagree with your faith in the "miraculous ascension" of the lore quality where now we are seeing an output comparable to the worst fantasy writing of all time.


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Dracorya

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask the Herald View Post
I don't know about any of you, but a member of a development team's primary justification for low-quality storytelling being "We want YOU to come up with it" is a cheap and retarded cop-out.

When you're part of a group that creates a product for others, your damn job is to ensure that the product is as high in quality as you can possibly make it.

Regardless of purpose or intent, a product must be able to appeal to everyone, no matter what.

The Lore Team has become nothing but a bunch of brain-dead junkies tickling each other's asses while watching episodes of the Regular Show on Cartoon Network.
See, this the attitude that annoys greatly. You reek of entitlement and considering the antics you pulled off during "THAT" incident, I don't think your opinion is of much worth.


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Ask the Herald

Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracorya View Post
See, this the attitude that annoys greatly. You reek of entitlement and considering the antics you pulled off during "THAT" incident, I don't think your opinion is of much worth.
Entitlement? No. I'm just sick and tired of these so called Riot employees whose jobs are to produce quality story being so easily forgiven by ignorant yes men like you. And that's what it all comes down to. Your kind will glorify and revere Riot no matter what, and I have no idea why.

You say my opinion isn't worth much. But yours is worth nothing simply for blindly putting down a guy who has grown disdainful of the underhanded and unjust treatment that the company, Riot Games, as a whole, gives its fanbase - their customers.


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