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Possible Solution to Toning Down Jayce

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Zanathax

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Ziven:
It's easy for a jayce player to call other people out on their mistakes when playing vs. you. but it's all theorycrafting.

Are you telling me that if I play Jayce right now, and do not put any points into his ult until level 6, that I would not be able to compete in lane against any viable solo tops? Wanna bet me?


Um, you've obviously never played him at all since you CAN'T put a point into his R until level 6 just like most every other champion... he gets it for free.

Derp.


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Ziven

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Zanathax:
Um, you've obviously never played him at all since you CAN'T put a point into his R until level 6 just like most every other champion... he gets it for free.

Derp.


I have never played him. I was looking at his kit in the game and about to buy him.

I'll rephrase my statement for you. "Are you telling me if I play Jayce right now and dont use any mercury cannon abilities, only melee stance abilities, that i can't compete against any viable solo tops? Wanna bet me?"

Quote:
Zanathax:
Maybe not for you... but I guarantee that most people complaining about him are complaining about his cannon's Q, not his hammer's E.

Also, the knockback component on Q can actually be made into a DISadvantage for a Jayce player if you have a clue against him... obviously, if it's going to finish you it doesn't matter, otherwise most of the geniuses playing him will knock you back toward your own turret, giving you a free escape if you have any kind of a clue.

Here's a Hint for free: The people on here griping about him aren't the 1200+ ELO crowd, much less the 1800+ ELO crowd...


You might want to stop now. You can look at any champs skills and see how it can be used to their disadvantage. Like Alistars knockback. That doesn't mean it can't be used correctly and in a devastating way. Jayce can use his knockback effectively and either knock you back into his own turret or disengage you completely. The more important use is that it disengages. This helps when he's dealing with someone who trades better than him, he simply knocks them back and continues farming from afar.

Also, it is not only the 1200 elo crowd. Many high elo players are laughing as they carry every game to victory as jayce. Even Shy from Azubu Frost said "he's unbeatable in top lane"

I think shy might be a little over 1200 elo, right? LOL


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Zanathax

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Ziven:
I have never played him. I was looking at his kit in the game and about to buy him.

I'll rephrase my statement for you. "Are you telling me if I play Jayce right now and dont use any mercury cannon abilities, only melee stance abilities, that i can't compete against any viable solo tops? Wanna bet me?"


Depends. Are you going to tell your opponent this? The CD's on his abilities are quite long compared to most other melee champs - if your opponent knows you're doing this(since they would know if your suggestion was followed and the ability to use Cannon form was taken away pre-6) then yes, you would get destroyed... totally, utterly destroyed by most other solo top champions being played competently.

So sure, with the above caveat, I'd be quite happy to make that bet with you.


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Zanathax

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Ziven:

You might want to stop now. You can look at any champs skills and see how it can be used to their disadvantage. Like Alistars knockback. That doesn't mean it can't be used correctly and in a devastating way. Jayce can use his knockback effectively and either knock you back into his own turret or disengage you completely. The more important use is that it disengages. This helps when he's dealing with someone who trades better than him, he simply knocks them back and continues farming from afar.

Also, it is not only the 1200 elo crowd. Many high elo players are laughing as they carry every game to victory as jayce. Even Shy from Azubu Frost said "he's unbeatable in top lane"

I think shy might be a little over 1200 elo, right? LOL


Did you watch the match yesterday where CLG EU took Irelia v Jayce top? Irelia is considered one of the weaker tops nowadays, and Irelia totally, completely and utterly OWNED Jayce in every possible way from the very beginning.

The point is, he's not the god of solo top. Not even close. If he was as amazing as some people think, the Pro's would be banning him. I haven't seen him banned once yet... I haven't watched all the games, either, but he's obviously not considered that big of a deal by them.

Also, listen to any pro after they had a good game talk about the champion they used... they'll almost always say that kind of stuff. It's called talking smack... you're quoting it isn't very impressive.


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a tiny ant

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Make his mana costs actually mean something instead of being completely arbitrary.


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The Guardian 009

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Maybe 10-12 second cooldown on Transformation at the start and gradually go back to the 6 second. It would make players less confident in engaging and make them think. That's all I really think that would work for a nerf that would destroy what he is. (an Anti-Duelist)


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DeathByWaffle

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
whouthink:

Thundering Blow RANGE: 240 COOLDOWN: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 COST: 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 mana

ACTIVE: Deals magic damage equal to a base amount plus a percentage of the target's maximum health, knocking the target back a short distance.
MAGIC DAMAGE: 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 (+ 100% Bonus AD)
MAX HEALTH TO DAMAGE RATIO: 8% / 11% / 14% / 17% / 20%

His Q isn't the issue in lane genius


First I want to address this issue because if you're having problems vs a Jayce that is maxing E first, then you obviously do not know how to build some MR. Like, if he's maxing E first he is not going to be doing damage with his other spells and will therefore only have one spell that will do any substantial damage. Get like a mercs and a hexdrinker and suddenly he's not that scary anymore and it becomes entirely possible to trade with him.

Now that that's out of the way, as a Jayce main, I feel that the biggest advantage that Jayce has in lane is just his overall safety in lane. This is mostly due to his combination of mobility and his knockback which is a very powerful disengage. There are a lot of times when I don't even buy wards because I'm absolutely confident that I can get away from a jungler gank very easily and without taking serious damage.

Therefore, I think the best way to nerf Jayce is to reduce the bonus MS from his passive and his acceleration gate. For example, perhaps change his passive from 40 bonus ms to 30 or even to start it at 25 bonus MS and increase by 5 every time he levels his ult to cap at 40. As for his gate, reducing it by 10% at all levels seems like a fair nerf to me.


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Ziven

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Zanathax:
Did you watch the match yesterday where CLG EU took Irelia v Jayce top? Irelia is considered one of the weaker tops nowadays, and Irelia totally, completely and utterly OWNED Jayce in every possible way from the very beginning.

The point is, he's not the god of solo top. Not even close. If he was as amazing as some people think, the Pro's would be banning him. I haven't seen him banned once yet... I haven't watched all the games, either, but he's obviously not considered that big of a deal by them.

Also, listen to any pro after they had a good game talk about the champion they used... they'll almost always say that kind of stuff. It's called talking smack... you're quoting it isn't very impressive.


I didn't see clg take irelia vs jayce. i saw TSM vs Azubu do it. Dyrus was Jayce and Shy was irelia. In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree...but as far as i know and as far as how it LOOKED... he was not very experienced with Jayce. It looked like he picked Jayce just so Shy wouldn't because Shy wrecked Dyrus' Darius pick in the game prior to that one. So all in all, Dyrus was getting outplayed hard top in both games vs. Azubu and I don't think it had much to do with the champion matchup.

Although I'm sure that we will see azubu, if not other teams play Jayce top leading up to the finals very soon here and we'll see how badly he dominates or not.


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Senstrae

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
a tiny ant:
Make his mana costs actually mean something instead of being completely arbitrary.

This. I don't even see Jayces pick up Philo Stone, because they just don't need it. If I put out that kind of harass as Irelia, I quickly oom and have to back.

The thing about Jayce is his kit does a bit of everything. Which is fine considering that he doesn't have an ultimate, except when his mana hardly matters. So then it seems like he's a manaless champ in addition to everything else, which feels a bit extreme in lane. His closest comparison I'd argue is Nidalee - and with her you have to pick strong long range poke or strong melee tanky harass, and her human form abilities will oom her quickly if she's not building ap/mana. Meanwhile Jayce gets both long range poke and melee damage at the same time, without having to worry about what to build nor mana.

I mean the guy has:
- Melee defensive steroid (vs Cougar form)
- Ranged attack speed increase (vs Heal attack speed component)
- Ranged attack armor shred (vs Trap)
- Dash engage (vs Pounce)
- Mixed damage, including %health (vs Cat form abilities, and Takedown execute)
- Knockback (vs Nidalee does not have CC)
- Long range poke (vs Spear)
- Speed boost (vs Passive Brush)

On paper it looks like Jayce traded a heal for two crowd controls and itemization freedom.

He shouldn't feel manaless. I say don't nerf his kit, don't even nerf his numbers. Just give him that recent treatment they gave Yorick, and make his abilities cost more mana.


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