@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

See the list of middle aged or older champions. There are no females that look older than 30.


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Arroyuice

Junior Member

10-06-2012

Why not skins?
a my little pony skin of hecarim will satisfy guys and girls for equal.


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Saccharina

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

**** off commie


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Liebstraum

Junior Member

10-06-2012

I haven't read all 70 pages of responses to this post, and I seriously doubt anyone is capable of sifting through all that information. However, I have read the last few pages and I think Bekkal makes a good point.

While I agree that gender equality is generally a good idea, I don't think that Riot's champion design violates that principle to an unreasonable degree. First you have to allow that this issue is not one that pertains solely to LoL. If you look at other multiplayer games, regardless of type, you will find that female players are frequently subject to verbal abuse and harassment, simply for pointing out they are female.

It is questionable that this behavior on the part of male gamers is truly malicious. Gamers are largly male, and gamer culture is filled with "smacktalk" and putdowns. Men will often talk to each other in similar fashion as they do women in games. It is also quite natural for members of an in-group to be hostile to an out-group, in this case, females.

Thus the issue becomes not so much whether or not Riot's champion design violates the principle of gender equality at all, but whether or not it does so to a greater degree than other companies and games.

After all, there is a very simple reason why games are designed to cater to a male population. Game companies are out to make a profit and they will produce what sells. It just so happens that males have evolved evolutionarily to be particularly sensitive to female sexual characteristics, since they are a good indicator of gene quality. As a result, *** sells, especially for men. Women are not immune to this effect, but they also have other considerations.

And while I think your desire to fight for equality is admirable, I doubt that this is the proper place for it. The fact of the matter is, as with any enterprise driven primarily by profit, Riot isn't going to change its design philosophy simply because of one critical post. You would have to provide substantial evidence that they violate the principle of gender equality to a far greater degree than what has been deemed "acceptable" among the gaming industry. And since the line between acceptable and unacceptable is quite blurred, I highly doubt you will have any luck.


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mogonk

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liebstraum View Post
Thus the issue becomes not so much whether or not Riot's champion design violates the principle of gender equality at all, but whether or not it does so to a greater degree than other companies and games.
If you frame the issue that way, the answer is of course no.

But Riot chooses to portray themselves as a company that aspires to higher standards. Issues like this make it clear that claim is largely disingenuous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liebstraum View Post
It just so happens that males have evolved evolutionarily to be particularly sensitive to female sexual characteristics, since they are a good indicator of gene quality.
There's actually very little evidence that the tendencies you describe are intrinsic or have a biological origin.


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
See the list of middle aged or older champions. There are no females that look older than 30.
Anivia is also extremely old and possibly older then Zilean (we know definitively Anivia is female).
Viktor's skin is not his original design but an addition which gives him greater diversity making this not a very strong argument. To further matters his hair may be said color for other reasons such as his insane experiments. Amethyst Ashe and Queen Ashe could potentially be some of the oldest humanoid champions in the game, but this is not certain as they could just as likely be extremely young.
Udry could very well be in his late 20s-30s... considering his life style it would not be unrealistic (don't base it off of his facial hair and such), nothing indicates his age being 50s as far as I am aware.
Tryndamere could be in his 30s or 40s (most likely one of those two ranges).
Swain could be a lot older but he likely is at least 50 (no dispute there).
Singed very well could be in his 20s in some skins, others he could be quite aged.
Shaco can not be guessed and is likely wearing a mask in every skin so we can't estimate based on facial structure.

Ryze, Graves, Gragas, GP, Draven, Darius
VS
Eve
Irelia (looks like she is decently aged, but due to her lore may in fact be quite young so difficult to say)
Fiora (looks like she is aging very well and probably in late 20s or early/mid 30s)
Janna
Karma (difficult to say how much time has passed based on her lore but looks well aged)
Leona is likely late 20s or early/mid 30s
Lulu is very old
Lux likely late teens or early 20s (though some of her skins suggest her theme as an even older women)
Miss Fortune could realistically be in her 40s... but it is extremely difficult to pin point her likely age
Morgana
Riven is possibly aged as well (hard to say, but definitely stylized as cool first and sexy second)
Sivir looks 30-40 but can't say for sure
Soraka... uber old
Aristocrat Vayne

After going into even further detail of the champion line ups it seems that majority of women in the game are in fact quite aged with very few females being in their potential teens or early 20s. I believe this point kills a lot of the arguments and concerns here.


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

While true, League of Legends isn't the worst in regards to their portrayal of womenfolk, there are games and communities that are much worse, it doesn't mean I can't expect more from this game and it's community. Riot is so progressive in so many ways, why not be progressive in this field as well?

I refuse to accept "this is the internet" as a valid excuse for harassment, though. That line of thinking is like "This is America, gays can't get married." Except that attitude is changing more and more as time goes on. It only gets better when people talk about it, demand more. If people just accepted things the way they are, women still wouldn't vote, blacks would still be slaves, etc. The internet is a new frontier. But I imagine things will only get better eventually, but only if we demand it from our online communities.


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
While true, League of Legends isn't the worst in regards to their portrayal of womenfolk, there are games and communities that are much worse, it doesn't mean I can't expect more from this game and it's community. Riot is so progressive in so many ways, why not be progressive in this field as well?

I refuse to accept "this is the internet" as a valid excuse for harassment, though. That line of thinking is like "This is America, gays can't get married." Except that attitude is changing more and more as time goes on. It only gets better when people talk about it, demand more. If people just accepted things the way they are, women still wouldn't vote, blacks would still be slaves, etc. The internet is a new frontier. But I imagine things will only get better eventually, but only if we demand it from our online communities.
I have proven in my above post that there is rich female diversity compared to male diversity in the game and in an older post that the real issue is lack of female champions. Unless someone provides a provoking and well explained thought the core point of this thread is over and what OP needs to do next is make a thread pointing out the need for a larger female champion pool.


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xengre View Post
Anivia is also extremely old and possibly older then Zilean (we know definitively Anivia is female).
Viktor's skin is not his original design but an addition which gives him greater diversity making this not a very strong argument. To further matters his hair may be said color for other reasons such as his insane experiments. Amethyst Ashe and Queen Ashe could potentially be some of the oldest humanoid champions in the game, but this is not certain as they could just as likely be extremely young.
Udry could very well be in his late 20s-30s... considering his life style it would not be unrealistic (don't base it off of his facial hair and such), nothing indicates his age being 50s as far as I am aware.
Tryndamere could be in his 30s or 40s (most likely one of those two ranges).
Swain could be a lot older but he likely is at least 50 (no dispute there).
Singed very well could be in his 20s in some skins, others he could be quite aged.
Shaco can not be guessed and is likely wearing a mask in every skin so we can't estimate based on facial structure.

Ryze, Graves, Gragas, GP, Draven, Darius
VS
Eve
Irelia (looks like she is decently aged, but due to her lore may in fact be quite young so difficult to say)
Fiora (looks like she is aging very well and probably in late 20s or early/mid 30s)
Janna
Karma (difficult to say how much time has passed based on her lore but looks well aged)
Leona is likely late 20s or early/mid 30s
Lulu is very old
Lux likely late teens or early 20s (though some of her skins suggest her theme as an even older women)
Miss Fortune could realistically be in her 40s... but it is extremely difficult to pin point her likely age
Morgana
Riven is possibly aged as well (hard to say, but definitely stylized as cool first and sexy second)
Sivir looks 30-40 but can't say for sure
Soraka... uber old
Aristocrat Vayne

After going into even further detail of the champion line ups it seems that majority of women in the game are in fact quite aged with very few females being in their potential teens or early 20s. I believe this point kills a lot of the arguments and concerns here.
I was careful to use the term "apparent age." That means how old they look, not how old they actually are. Anivia is a monster and completely irrelevant. Viktor's skin reflects what Viktor used to look like in canon, so it's the most relevant thing to look at when trying to determine his age. Udyr looks old, so it doesn't matter if he is actually a 25 year old chain-smoker who ages quickly.


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
I was careful to use the term "apparent age." That means how old they look, not how old they actually are. Anivia is a monster and completely irrelevant. Viktor's skin reflects what Viktor used to look like in canon, so it's the most relevant thing to look at when trying to determine his age. Udyr looks old, so it doesn't matter if he is actually a 25 year old chain-smoker who ages quickly.
It does matter as the topic is sexualization of genders. If he can reasonably look like that and still be young or look younger then he really is while being quite old (or any champion for that matter) then this is relevant and not being sexist. Viktor you have no real point here... and Anivia matters because she is a "diverse" female champion that is known to be female without doubt, not that it matters since there are many other extremely old champions.

It is not appropriate to claim something as being sexist when they can realistically have such an appearance in the real world (in reference to the variance in ages which you so strongly speak of males having but females not possessing that you claim key in their being diverse).