@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Shadeykris

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekkal View Post
If you are seriously suggesting that Tryndamere, Ryze, Varus, etc do not look like adult entertainment workers, or that Garen, Olaf, Kassadin, etc are even remotely approaching what is achievable with the human body, then this discussion is meaningless anyway.

Frankly, you're proving my point for me with this kind of stance.
They don't, and this is the difference:

Quote:
Both men and women are given crazy nearly unattainable idealized bodies in comics, we can all agree on this. But that is where the equality ends. Men are generally portrayed with idealized ATHLETE body types. While women are generally portrayed with idealized PORN STAR and SUPERMODEL body types. Which would make sense if the women were not actually superheroes. But they are, and so making them porn stars and supermodels doesn’t make a lot of sense. If women, like men, were rendered like gymnasts, swimmers, runners, boxers, tennis pros, and body builders, you’d see far fewer objections, because that would make things quite balanced. An idealized athletic form that few of us can achieve but many of us would admire or like to have, is imminently reasonable for a superhero form, but that’s not what we get, instead we get idealized (and wholly unrealistic) supermodel and porn star types.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...its-not-equal/


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Why do straight guys INSIST that Tryndamere is sexy? Bodybuilders are widely considered unattractive.


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Bekkal

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tspuun View Post
A bare (in most of these cases, bulky and muscular) male chest is powerful; a bare female chest is sexy. It's not a perfect comparison.
This is exactly the point I was making in my original post in this thread. You cannot make this claim. The claim itself is sexist, and demeaning to men.

Let me share a personal example from my life: My rib cage sticks out a bit horizontally. My chest will never stick out over the top of my ribcage the way Garen's does. This may sound stupid to you, but this has been a source of real concern for me in terms of body image my entire life. Most of my life I've been benlow 8% body fat (I wrestled most of my life, and have been in excellent shape) but "felt fat" because my musculature never matched the ideal I had in my head (The Rock, essentially).

This is 100% as legitimate as any woman who feels negative in some way because of Ashe's lithe figure. My explanation of sexualization is 100% as legitimate as any concern any woman may have over Miss Fortune.

To deny this is inherently sexist. The fact that men have less of a problem with being sexualized lies more in their acceptance of sexualization than anything else. If you have an issue with sexualization, examine yourself. Sexualization doesn't mean you're not taken seriously - there is not a player in this game who doesn't take laning against an Irelia, Akali, or whoever else seriously. The female champions are not seen as inferior to male champions.

As I said, the OP's topic is too vague, doesn't make any real defensible point, and flirts heavily with sexism against men.

Quote:
I don't know how much porn you've seen, but male porn stars (this is a big generalization, considering the vast array of porn available) are typically defined by two things: Size of junk and athletic build. Athletes literally look like strippers/porn stars. You will never see a Chippendale who doesn't have a Garen frame (Or, at the very least, a Varus frame). Go ahead, do a Google Image search.

This image isn't supposed to imply "If I buy those underwear, people will think I'm good at soccer:" http://bodyfitnessgain.com/wp-conten...Beckham-2.jpeg


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
Ah, I see the confusion. I don't have a problem with sexually suggestive content, but when it does a disservice to the character's personality, it's a shame. Sun Goddess Karma shows skin, but as a diplomat, I would think Karma would partake in other cultures, and dress the way they dress. I don't think it does a disservice. However, as a political leader, I don't think she would participate in raunchy activities or wear something suggestive just for the sake of it.

Shyvana is so serious, giving her a skin that doesn't portray that just so she can be sexy would do her character an injustice, in my opinion.

You can pretty much get away with anything with Miss Fortune (theme wise), but it doesn't mean I approve of her latest splash art, or her historically inaccurate Cowgirl skin.
When it does do a disservice that is indeed a problem, however, you have not been even attempting to understand, consider, and accept context and other cultures/views here. I am honestly not trying to hate on you or target you but as you are one of the key posters and original poster in the topic you play an important role in the discussion.

There is no issue with Sun Goddess Karma... think about historical and geographical context in relation to her skin and their culture.

In regards to Shyvana which skin are you referring too? The only one that I think can claim any frontal attempt at being sexy and not cool looking is Boneclaw Shyvana which is actually the most accurate theme in regards to her lore.

Miss Fortune's skin isn't about being entirely accurate but taking a given theme and putting MF in it. MF is supposed to be naturally sexy (considering her charms and flirtatious nature) so this is pretty in line with her.

After looking at the skins I have found that this topic truly is moot and incorrectly approached. Diversity in champions is effectively equivalent between male and female. The problem is that it appears to many that this is not the case because the female population of champions makes up 30% of the total champion line up. The female champions are actually quite diverse. Go back and carefully look at the roster and then you will see what I am saying.

What we need is simply more female champions to balance out the gender levels here, not the diversity of how they are sexually perceived.


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LordRandomness

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryswar View Post
Cute. You ignore how fervently IronStylus and some others have supported more varied and non-sexist female champs in favor of painting an inaccurate portrayal of red behavior?

Grow up and shut up.
This is a great way to NOT facilitate discussion. If you've got a problem with the OP, how about addressing it rather than basically posting "everything in that post is bad, you should feel bad and this thread should be closed"


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Tspuun

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekkal View Post
This is exactly the point I was making in my original post in this thread. You cannot make this claim. The claim itself is sexist, and demeaning to men.

Let me share a personal example from my life: My rib cage sticks out a bit horizontally. My chest will never stick out over the top of my ribcage the way Garen's does. This may sound stupid to you, but this has been a source of real concern for me in terms of body image my entire life. Most of my life I've been benlow 8% body fat (I wrestled most of my life, and have been in excellent shape) but "felt fat" because my musculature never matched the ideal I had in my head (The Rock, essentially).

This is 100% as legitimate as any woman who feels negative in some way because of Ashe's lithe figure. My explanation of sexualization is 100% as legitimate as any concern any woman may have over Miss Fortune.

To deny this is inherently sexist. The fact that men have less of a problem with being sexualized lies more in their acceptance of sexualization than anything else. If you have an issue with sexualization, examine yourself. Sexualization doesn't mean you're not taken seriously - there is not a player in this game who doesn't take laning against an Irelia, Akali, or whoever else seriously. The female champions are not seen as inferior to male champions.

As I said, the OP's topic is too vague, doesn't make any real defensible point, and flirts heavily with sexism against men.
Yes, men can have body image issues, and I never said that this was not the case.

My argument has been that one, having everyone female human in the game be the same default sexy is boring, and two, it takes away from female characters that have sexiness as a core part of their character. If every single woman has the same body, then why the hell is Janna considered so beautiful in-universe?


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Bekkal

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tspuun View Post
Yes, men can have body image issues, and I never said that this was not the case.

My argument has been that one, having everyone female human in the game be the same default sexy is boring, and two, it takes away from female characters that have sexiness as a core part of their character. If every single woman has the same body, then why the hell is Janna considered so beautiful in-universe?
Your first point is a provably false claim. Your second point is proven moot because Miss Fortune has been a focus of this thread.


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xengre View Post
When it does do a disservice that is indeed a problem, however, you have not been even attempting to understand, consider, and accept context and other cultures/views here. I am honestly not trying to hate on you or target you but as you are one of the key posters and original poster in the topic you play an important role in the discussion.

There is no issue with Sun Goddess Karma... think about historical and geographical context in relation to her skin and their culture.

In regards to Shyvana which skin are you referring too? The only one that I think can claim any frontal attempt at being sexy and not cool looking is Boneclaw Shyvana which is actually the most accurate theme in regards to her lore.

Miss Fortune's skin isn't about being entirely accurate but taking a given theme and putting MF in it. MF is supposed to be naturally sexy (considering her charms and flirtatious nature) so this is pretty in line with her.

After looking at the skins I have found that this topic truly is moot and incorrectly approached. Diversity in champions is effectively equivalent between male and female. The problem is that it appears to many that this is not the case because the female population of champions makes up 30% of the total champion line up. The female champions are actually quite diverse. Go back and carefully look at the roster and then you will see what I am saying.

What we need is simply more female champions to balance out the gender levels here, not the diversity of how they are sexually perceived.
I don't take issue with Karma. I was praising the Sun Goddess skin. Miss Fortune's new splash art is no longer just sexually suggestive, it's borderline explicit. If she leaned forward, you'd see nipple. Her top makes no sense at all, and her breasts are reminiscent of High School of the Dead. MF could still be sexy and wear pants in her Cowgirl skin.

Your last point is demonstrably wrong. *** appeal aside, there is obvious differences in diversity, such as body types and apparent age. Anivia is the only female in the list of champions that I classified as Monsters, Anthropomorphic Animals, or Anomalies.


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tyrant View Post
I read thread title, and i am now going to guess what this thread is about. Either sexism among players, how guys are ******s to females. Or that all the female champions are "sexy", and none of the male champions are.
If you aren't going to read the thread and participate in the discussion, why bother posting? You just dismissed this topic based on the title. You don't even entertain the thought that I might actually have a legitimate grievance with the design philosophy of the champions. Your post is no better than the "tl;dr" drivel I get from other players. If you didn't read it, why did you feel the need to announce that you didn't read it? Just downvote me and move on.


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
I don't take issue with Karma. I was praising the Sun Goddess skin. Miss Fortune's new splash art is no longer just sexually suggestive, it's borderline explicit. If she leaned forward, you'd see nipple. Her top makes no sense at all, and her breasts are reminiscent of High School of the Dead. MF could still be sexy and wear pants in her Cowgirl skin.

Your last point is demonstrably wrong. *** appeal aside, there is obvious differences in diversity, such as body types and apparent age. Anivia is the only female in the list of champions that I classified as Monsters, Anthropomorphic Animals, or Anomalies.
The new Miss Fortune splash art is not even close to explicit. To be frank its no worse then a swim suit. If she bent over you would NOT see any nipple. Her top makes sense and is based on real clothes that have exist (if that was not the intention then artist got lucky because it is accurate). So having large breast which is not exactly uncommon for even high schoolers now days makes it reminiscent of High School of the Dead? I'm sorry but that anime was way over the top and not due to physical traits... but other explicit actions. Your case is just personal bias and your own trapped view on the topic in regards to MF.

We don't know if many of these "monster" classification of champions are male, female, or neuter so don't even go there. Do explain how the male champions are more diverse then the current female line up. I request examples.