@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Zeriphor

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerserkSheal View Post
Yeah, one is being caught red handed while the other can be prevented by an in-game function.

You mute, and report. YOU don't see the comments, but the Tribunal and riot does.
I edited my previous post, but it seems you saw it before then, so I'll repeat myself.

What is your point with this? If you feel these players should be banned, then you feel their behavior is unacceptable.


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Leopanther

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hype Algerian View Post
I thought the day would never come when I would have to make an utterly gigantic post in a gaming forum but it seems that the thread more than demands it.

For starters, I will address your post point by point.
Yes, I know. Every dude knows. Many of the guys who were behind the 'internet culture' are actually boys/men. There has always been sexism/hostility towards the feminine populace and that's not just in the internet. If we are to take any examples... save for the contemporary era in some developed countries, many women are still fighting to earn rights. Internet is somewhat like that for now and someday a change will occur, but women have to be willing to take a crude stance and fight it out.

The dilemma is not just about Riot Games or anything. It's about the targeted demographics. Let's put it this way: The vocal members of the internet community/culture are mostly men. I'm saying vocal, not "the totality". When women will let their voice be heard, things will change. For now, though, they need to form a cohesive unit (just like these mysoginistic fellows you could meet in gaming communities do) to be able to create a balance. Don't expect the voice of one woman to be heard in front of the united voice of over 9000 guys. Do notice, though, that some of us are too damn sweet.

Do note, also, that while some women are not fond of some sexualization, some others... are. I personally know a woman who finds some of the portrayed women rather alluring - though some she found were downright degrading. Likewise, men would find that Gragas is utterly degrading (or a laughing stock) while, say, Malzahar seems to be sorta sexualized - if not for the fact that he's all business. Then again, say, what entices a woman to flip the "on" switch? I'm not sure eye-candy is really the answer, but feel free to correct me if it is.

I will agree, though, on the fact that League desperately needs a bunch of clothed women in the place.

A vocal lady is a start! You gotta rile other ladies up. I'll be blunt here (I'm actually a feminist by nature but I won't hide the sun in a sieve) and I want you to answer to the question I will ask you without feeling hurt:

What is the targeted demographics of this game? [Hint: It's the gaming community in the Internet. Given how men are the most vocal ones in the Internet, I'll let you make deductions.]

Now is the time to raise hell. Rile all the women around you, just go "What SHOULD the targeted demographics of this game be?". Be vocal to Riot games as a cohesive unit, ladies, and I'm pretty sure Riot will gladly oblige in making non-sexualized skins for their female champions, on top of eye candy for the ladies.

Now comes the point, though, when I will do a counter-argumentation. It will be blunt, it will be hurtful probably... but it is meant as a different view of things.

===============================================

1) I am pretty sure that Riot Games has made content that goes opposite to oversexualizing their lady champions.
- Silverfang Akali looks more like a badass ninja who's out to gut you. I mean, look at that intense look on her face!
- I would say Sherwood Ashe. Focus goes primarly on her facial expression and posture.
- Queen Ashe. Enough said.
- Arctic Warfare Caitlyn looks like a hunter.
- Diana's default skin. She's mostly business. I don't care if her Valkyrie skin changes her outlook, she still stays mostly business. She has a strong personality.
- Nightblade, Infiltrator and Aviator Irelia. Her default skin does let some skin show up, though.
- Karma and all of her skins.
- Kayle and all of her skins.
- Leona and her skins (exception made of Valkyrie). The high heels are not functional, I admit, but it's obvious that her sexuality is NOT the focal point.
- Lux's old splash art (and ingame skin) + Spellthief Lux.
- Morgana is too thin to be attractive in my opinion. Anorexic ladies never had much success with gentlemen. Though, I will admit that her blackthorn skin looks... rather enticing.
- Riven (exception made of Battle Bunny Riven - and hey, I'll come back to it later )
- Divine Soraka.
- Vayne (+ Vindicator and Aristocrat skins)
Sure, they could do more but it's a decent start already.

2) Saying that men look for how enticing a female character is to motivate picking them is downgrading men to animals. You somewhat fell into that trap and we feel very, very offended. I know we men are weird but when playing games we're far more preoccupied about the functionality of the character RATHER THAN their looks. If I were obsessed by looks, I'd be personally picking Mid AP Janna all the time regardless of being countered. However, I happen to not be fond of Janna (yes, I find her looks to be exagerately nude and that somewhat disturbs me).

3) Sometimes, we like to mess with things for the heck of it. Battle Bunny Riven (also known as Bunnygirl Riven) was an idea by Shaella (who I suspect is a girl) and the community embraced it for how funny it was. Not for how overly sexualizing it was. I personally embraced the concept because seeing Riven in a bunny outfit hopping around with a carrot sword was like... having a peak at Lulu's mind. As in, it is completely random. Fantastically humorous.

4) These characters are virtual. However, different things stand out for different characters. Diana's story appealed to lots of people and despite her not being overly sexualized she's been extremely popular. Soraka's old lore appealed to a lot of people, me included. Akali is a hot ninja chick who will kill you (aka don't mess with her). There are many ways to connect with a persona that are not limited to how they look.

5) What appeals to some people doesn't appeal to others. I know a girl who calls Nocturne and Skarner her "babies" (while for many women out there, Teemo is their plushie). Personally, I find Karthus to be a total badass. Nikasaur (a Rioter) is known for being fond of her absolutely cute Kog'maw. Then again, many League players **** bricks when Rammus (because... ok), Mordekaiser (HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE), Gangplank (eat an orange, be k), Hecarim (My Little Pony~) and Mundo (MUNDO!) are involved (also, yes, these are examples). Targeted demographics play a huge role and Riot has made a huge effort to find something that fits a category.

6) This point has no summary, I'm afraid, but let's try to put an example instead. If anything, I said that if Blackthorn Morgana was for real my jaws would drop. Then again, she's not real and it's just fine. Just like Varus for you... I mean, imagine if Varus ditched his bow and arrow just to deliver breakfast to you a moment after you wake up... Wouldn't you just swoon? (and yet, we both know that you wouldn't - you'd feel utterly weirded out by such a display). I think you get my point :3

7) Don't forget that some of the gamers are frustrated gentlemen Okay, I'm gonna get downvoted to hell if I don't remind them of that hot yet unapproachable girl in high-school/college/at work that they never dared to approach or who rejected their advances and stuff blahdablah overly cliche stuff. The problem is, they're en masse >.<

8) You might think that being a woman gamer is important. The truth is, we'll act towards you in either of these ways:
a- omg woman pokemon <3! (the heart doesn't mean we're creepy... just that we <3 pokemons - and that we all are pokemons anyway)
b- go make me sammich (by the way, we don't seriously mean it, it's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge joke)
c- oh lord, she's trying to make a big deal out of being a giiiirl gamer. We're GAMERS GODDAMNIT! NOTHING SPECIAL!
Well, of course, C is expressed in such an awkward way that it looks downright mysoginistic. B is mostly meant as a joke (and only true a$$holes would seriously mean it - or immatures, let them grow up).
d- OMG WOMAN GAMER I WANNA GET LAID WITH HER; okay, now is the time to just ignore this creeper. Fshhhhhhhhhhhhh-
===========================================

All in all, I hope you understand my point even though I went everywhere and nowhere at once.
It's partly about making the se.x disparity nil, sure... But it's also about having fun and just ditching whatever sexual references aside and having a good time playing a game.


However... I really want to see a bundle of skins/champions aimed for the ladies... gotta get some eye candy anyway eh? I mean, that Blackthorn Morgana art... (synonymous to 'that Varus art...' for you)
..good posts like to get drowned in the pages. Quoting it as a push to the thread, and for more people to read it. Many valid points in it ^_^


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Firellius

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerserkSheal View Post
Do you honestly think every jack and jane will abide by the summoners code? REALLY?

My lord, I just don't know anymore.
They should. They are expected to.

Every single offender is accountable for his or her actions. Don't act like they can't help being jerks.


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Apex Angel

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

Well, this thread went off tilt. When from someone for asking for more variety in female champions, to invoking censorship on the internet and video games, to trolling.


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BerserkSheal

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firellius View Post
Giving in to moral decline is a weakness.

I want people to change for me. I want them to behave like a human being. There are moral standards that we have to keep to. And I'm not going to ask people to shield themselves, rather than punishing offenders.

The responsibility is, has been, will always be and MUST be placed with the perpetrators. NOT the victims.

If you're telling people to toughen up, you're commending the bullies. You're giving them a pat on the back and you take their responsibilities away from them. That's plain wrong. That cultivates terrible behavior.

If you're behaving like a jerk, you are to blame, not the person you're being a jerk to.

Again, giving in to moral decline is a weakness.
And yet as I said, FUNCTIONS exist as Riot knew situations like that would arise from certain players.

If you don't wish to use them, what can I say? You can't expect civility on the internet nor when the player is anonymous.


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Venova

Senior Member

10-06-2012

I think people get too worked up over appearences of characters in a fantasy game. Why does the world of Valoran have to conform to our world's social norms of attire? Also, how many run of the mill war games represent females at all? Any female skins in MW3? Nope. Any female characters in tf2? Nope. I'm glad that LoL has such a variety of female champions, gorgeous female champions each with their own style and uniqueness. If all you see is breasts you should get your eyes checked, there is alot more there. And as for the new MF splash, it's infinitely superior to the previous one, while it may be just as "sexualized" in displaying her figure as the previous one, at least now she looks beautiful to match. I appreciate beauty. How do you think everyone would feel if suddenly Riot was headed up by some conservative or something and they just outright massively changed all of the female characters to conform to some narrow view of "morality" or something. What if Riot suddenly put Burqa's or Hajib's on all the female champions to make the game appeal more to the middle east world. What would most of us think? Most of us would think we lost some of the characters that make this game enjoyable and capture our imaginations.

While I do agree there needs to be much more variety in female champions and especially in the more male dominated roles, I don't think these endless critisisms of Riot's fantastic artwork get us any closer to that. I do have some disagreements about some of the recent splashes as well, but oversexualization is not one of them. They aren't wearing bikini's, they are wearing the kind of clothing that seems somewhat alien to some of us, because it's not our world, it's the world of League of Legends. And I think there is far more variety in terms of how the female characters look in LoL then you see in other games - your not giving riot credit anywhere except Karma and Leona. "Her armor accentuates her body too much", okay lets put her in some boring, totally not fantasy armor, Riot Leona? How unique and identifying is that for a strong female character in a fantasy game? It's not, it's completely generic chain mail ****, instead of the great things we have in this game. You want more realism? If League was more realistic in the portrayal of women in a fantasy comparable setting, they wouldn't be in the game at all, you'd be lucky if there was a shopkeeper instead, because thats how women had to be back in those times 1500 years ago or so. Not so in our fantasy world of League that we spend so much time playing.

I'm sure I'm off or wrong on a few points here and thats okay, I just think this issue is just taken too seriously by some people. I'm female and I love this game and it's characters, and I'm okay with that. Riot should not have to second guess their artistic decisions and talent because of a few forum threads - everyone can agree there needs to be more variety in roles and appearence, and I'm sure Riot will continue to improve upon that in the future. Some people have written things as rediculous as "i feel like i'm looking at porn when i play league because of the splash art", I think a statement like that is alot more sexist then anything Riot has done.

I'm tired of writing about this, gl hf, enjoy the wonderous artwork in this game (and Riot please release wallpapers of every splash!)

[edit] one last thing, on the issue of the treatment of female players by others in this game, I agree entirely that more needs to be done to create a welcoming experience for all players, regardless of gender. This is not something Riot can just make happen on their own though, there is a stigma for females on the internet in general for some stupid reason, and in gaming, especially competitive gaming, it's disgusting blatent sexism and extremely immature. Riot can't do much about this kind of thing on their own, it's not a problem that will be solved by changing LoL's art style or something, or even by tribunal or honor, it will take something bigger then that to start to attack that problem. There is some improvement in that issue but it comes slowly - critisizing Riot about it isn't going to fix it, because even if female gamers had to deal with absolutely none of that **** in LoL, we'd still have to in other games, and the people who come from other games to LoL with that immature sexist attitude. Changing that takes initiatives accross all of the gaming world, and even needs to be in the educational and upbringings of people in order for that to really be completely tackled. Linking the word "***" and "sexism" to try to say that somehow changing the appearence of characters in the game would somehow combat that problem in some way is simply not being in understanding of the issues that create that kind of negative attitude and uninviting atmosphere. Saying "it's the internet", is no better though. This is a problem much bigger then Riot, and while they will do what they can, it's up to you the players, to be the adults and treat other people with decency, regardless of anything about them, percieved or otherwise.

that is all, too much time wasted!


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BerserkSheal

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeriphor View Post
I edited my previous post, but it seems you saw it before then, so I'll repeat myself.

What is your point with this? If you feel these players should be banned, then you feel their behavior is unacceptable.
..really?

Their behaviour is unacceptable, but it's a fact people will act how they want regardless of who the target is.

Which as I will YET AGAIN state, riot implemented mute in the first place. To ignore players who have no regard for others.


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tempnameA461

Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerserkSheal View Post
Which as I will YET AGAIN state, riot implemented mute in the first place. To ignore players who have no regard for others.
Why does mute block text and not sounds?


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Agam

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Recruiter

10-06-2012

You lost me at @Riot...


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madjai

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeriphor View Post
I edited my previous post, but it seems you saw it before then, so I'll repeat myself.

What is your point with this? If you feel these players should be banned, then you feel their behavior is unacceptable.
Can you please explain to me what separates a person that violates the summoners code for verbal abuse compared to a person that violates the summoners code for abusing a female summoner because she's a girl?

It's still verbal abuse, and they'll still go to the tribunal, stop trying to white knight the cause because you just look like an idiot lol.