@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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mogonk

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Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
*shrug* I'm not going to force you to consider it from, oh, any perspective that isn't the crudest adolescent male gamer demographic. I'm not going to continue repeating my reasoning over what has now become more than 200 pages of my presence in this thread, solely to convince you that images like these:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Alyx_Vance.png
http://ryodita.deviantart.com/art/Astrid-251942878
http://dinmoney.deviantart.com/art/B...Monk-299759743
http://michalivan.deviantart.com/art...hard-330318305
http://mikeypetrov.deviantart.com/art/Magic-5-329582704
http://ironshod.deviantart.com/art/T...ssin-329102484
http://elsevilla.deviantart.com/art/Bar-Fight-322827615
http://anndr.deviantart.com/art/Captain-317072827
http://sakimichan.deviantart.com/art/Sato-317040134 (I have my own issues with the pose but it's still a good example)
http://jasonengle.deviantart.com/art...cker-310461369

give you just as much female form to appreciate, without pandering, as images like these:

http://quirkilicious.deviantart.com/art/Nissa-325030238
http://larsmidnatt.deviantart.com/ar...ht-3-314155184
http://jiuge.deviantart.com/art/see-...econ-302371426 (lady on left isn't really applicable)
http://gooloo0-o.deviantart.com/art/...gain-300495616

(and this is really tame stuff, obviously)

and therefore are Just Better ceteris paribis.
Quod erat demonstrandum.

Best post in the thread.


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Karolina

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rippyman View Post
The problem isn't that they are indistinguishable, the problem is they have identical body types. Imagine if all male human champions were all build like Garen. Kept their clothes and weapons, but were all the same kind of bulky stronk man. That would be pretty dang boring visually. Ironstylus has admitted this is a problem so I don't see why this is an argument at this point.
Not only that, but the focus of many of their designs are not their personality/lore/utility but attractiveness.


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

10-10-2012
61 of 61 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkwing View Post
As a gay gamer, I have to respectfully disagree on some of the male champions you called out as underdressed but non-sexualized. I think given roughly the same amount of clothing/skin ratio, the degree of sexualization is not something entirely in the hands of the developer or artist, but also the disposition of the audience. Basically, I'm saying that you appear to be dismissing Tryndamere, Varus, Lee Sin, Penta Olaf, and Pantheon as under-sexualized because you don't find them sexy. Bodybuilders are 'nasty'? That's an entirely subjective statement and you went on to turn it into a blanket generalization. I happen to find bulky-built men incredibly sexy. For me, Tryndamere, Varus, Lee Sin, Penta Olaf, and Pantheon are quite sexy, and quite sexual. Their splash art highlights their masculinity and their physical prowess (bulging arms, pecs, naked in the cold, heroic stance, being a drummer, etc). And physical dominance, my dear, is sexy. To me. And muscle are unsexy. To you. I agree on your points that female champions are overwhelmingly (and quite disproportionately) oversexualized, but I think you have to turn your subjectivity down a notch when it comes to male champions and what makes or breaks sexual objectification for them.

Unfortunately, societal gender role and values come into play here and that's a very messy thing to buck against. For instance, I find Pantheon's splash art of him looking aggressive as all hell and very tense to be rather hot. But that's because society teaches us that males *should* be sexually aggressive and dominant. That's not something Riot can magic away, they just have to be more aware of how they cater to both their drawn-to-males and drawn-to-females audience.

PS: Additionally, MY list of sexy male champs:
Nasus - Great arms, great thighs, especially if you look at the Chinese splash. Then again he's a dog. So...yeah.
Garen - Good lord, this man has the jawline of a Greek god. I can't decide if I want to run away with Rugged Garen or Desert Trooper Garen.
Ryze - Shoulders! Biceps! Pecs! Abs! Are you sure this guy is a spell-flinging mage? Because damn, he is BUILT. A few points off for that god-awful beard though. Can we get a sexy Five O' Clock Shadow Ryze, or Well-Trimmed Ryze?
Malzahar - Ok, to be honest I didn't think Malzahar was hot until I saw Taco Storm.
Xin Zhao - Oh. My. God. HERE is Xin Zhao's original design. I would follow this man. To my grave. This looks like a man fierce in battle, stoic in the evening, and gentle in bed. This is the man my man could smell like. The final design? 7/10, would still do. I mean, look at the Chinese splash for the Viscero skin. Now THAT is a gladiator.
Gangplank - He's a pirate. Before his remodeling he had some serious pec cleavage and chest hair going on, and after his remodeling he found some very well-defined biceps. He can board my deck however he likes.
Jarvan IV - Look at his classic skin. Look at it! Those pecs! Those abs! That tight black spandex! Seriously, Jarvan. That **** is for ballet and modern dancers.
Udyr - Don't laugh, but I think a hippie who communes with wild animals is attractive in his own way. Granted, he probably smells funny and doesn't know what shampoo is, but when you're both at Burning Man, who's gonna care?
I have no real brain-juice to reply to this aside from saying you have excellent points, I never thought about it that way, and good lord this is hilarious.

+1 to you, sir.


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Everborn

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
So I was watching the quarterfinals today, and they did a segment on Alex Ich. Alex talked about how he is one of the few gamers who is married, when inspired a rather odd comment from Phreak. “More girls should play League of Legends.” I found it odd, because the LoL community isn’t always the most welcoming. I know of plenty of girls that do play, and they choose a gender neutral summoner name because of the grief they receive for making their gender known. I know of even more girls that choose not to play LoL at all because they don’t feel welcome.

One of my best friends is a girl gamer. She does play LoL, but only when playing with her boyfriend and myself. She feels marginalized by the LoL community, and Riot endorses this attitude indirectly. Whenever gender issues are brought up in these forums, there is a huge backlash. It’s almost as if gamers are threatened by this topic. They don’t want them womenfolk to change their games to make them more inclusive. They like that Riot caters to the majority (straight white male). Any time someone makes a perfectly valid point about sexism, they are met with massive downvotes and malicious comments.
How has Riot endorsed this attitude? While I’ve never witnessed a Riot take part in burning these feminists at the stake, they do dismiss these topics. I made a post about how human female champions are treated differently than human male champions, and Morello pointed out that I ignored counterexamples like Lulu, Tryndamere, Riven, etc. and therefore my point was invalid. I attempted to reengage Morello in conversation, but it he had moved on to other questions. Meanwhile, I’ve seen two threads this week mocking the entire conversation, each attracted three red posts joining in. These threads claimed that Pentakill Olaf and Gragas over-sexualize the male gender, and has caused the poster to be insecure with his body.

If Riot seriously wants to attract more girls to their games, then I suggest they listen to what the few girls who do play League of Legends have to say. Have a real conversation with them. Entertain the idea that there really is a problem with how women are treated by the players, and how female champions are treated by Riot. I’d find it refreshing if a Riot employee could actually admit that there is a problem, or that I at least raise some valid points. My friend knew Pentakill Olaf was going to be used as a counterpoint to ( champions aren’t sexualized” the second she saw him. But Olaf is not aesthetically pleasing to most women. His physique still caters to the same people that Miss Fortune does. I see the argument that “This is a game. Who cares if a champion is sexy?” That’s not the issue. The problem isn’t that there is no mancandy for women to oggle over. The problem is that champions are treated differently based on whether it is male or female. Riot is completely comfortable sexifying female champion, even in cases where it isn’t actually appropriate for the character. Akali’s outfit is impractical for a ninja. Shen and Kennen are completely covered up, and Akali is constantly on the edge of a nip slip.

Yes, there are obvious exceptions. Since I don’t want to be accused of sampling champions that prove my point, and ignoring ones that don’t, I am going to compile a complete list. But first, let’s list all the champions that are irrelevant to the conversation. Morello used Lulu as a counterexample, but I was careful to use the term “adult human females” because yordles just shouldn’t count. They exist to be cute, not sexy. Male yordles are fuzzy animals. Likewise, children shouldn’t count, because sexualizing them is awkward and inappropriate.

Monsters*:
Anivia, Cho’gath, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Hecarim, Karthus, Kha’Zix, Kog’Maw, Malphite, Maokai, Nocturne, Sion, Skarner, Trundle, Urgot, Yorick

Yordles:
Amumu, Corki, Heimerdinger, Kennen, Lulu, Poppy, Rumble, Teemo, Tristana, Veigar, Ziggs

Automatons:
Blitzcrank, Orianna

Children:
Annie, Nunu

Anthropomorphic Animals:
Alistar, Nasus, Rammus, Renekton, Rengar, Twitch, Volibear, Warwick, Wukong

Anomalies**:
Brand, Dr. Mundo, Jax, Kassadin, Mordekaiser, Nautilus, Xerath

*My definition of “monsters” might be broader than yours. I went ahead and included all the undead champions, void creatures, dare anything that wasn’t humanoid. Anivia is the only female monster, which stands out even further if you lump in the champions that I categorized as Anthropomorphic Animals and Anomalies.

**Anomalies are champions I really didn’t know how to categorize. An argument could be made that they are human enough to qualify for the main conversation, or that they could be thrown into the monster list. If someone wants to reference one of these champions for the sake of an argument, I’d be willing to consider it.
So that leaves us with the following champions:

Adult Humans:
Ahri, Akali, Ashe, Caitlyn, Cassiopeia, Darius, Diana, Draven, Evelynn, Ezreal, Fiora, Gangplank, Garen, Gragas, Graves, Irelia, Janna, Jarvan IV, Jayce, Karma, Katarina, Kayle, LeBlanc, Lee Sin, Leona, Lux, Malzahar, Master Yi, Miss Fortune, Morgana, Nidalee, Olaf, Pantheon, Riven, Ryze, Sejuani, Shaco, Shen, Shyvana, Singed, Sivir, Sona, Soraka, Swain, Syndra, Talon, Taric, Tryndamere, Twisted Fate, Udyr, Varus, Vayne,Viktor, Vladamir, Xin Zhao, Zilean, Zyra

Not all of these champions are human, such as Zyra, Varus, Kayle, Shyvana, etc., but have enough human traits to count. Sure, Cassiopeia is partially a snake, and Ahri has nine tails, but what keeps them from being anthropomorphic animals is the fact that parts of their bodies look completely human.

So now that we got that out of the way, we can finally get to the meat and potatoes. The argument I am trying to make is not that every female champions is sexualized, and zero male champions are. My argument is that female champions are treated differently, and that there is less diversity amongst the female cast members. I will start with the most obvious disparity, which just happens to be sexualization.

Let’s compare male and female champions that receive comparable skins. Male champions tend to receive legitimate “profession” skins, like cop, doctor, cowboy, etc. Female champions tend to get stripper versions of those skins. The following is a list of what I call “Stripper Skins.” For contrast, I compare them to equivalent male skins.

• Nurse Akali is a stripper nurse. No real nurse dresses like that. However, strippers with themed costumes do dress like that. Surgeon Shen is an actual medical professional.
• Cowgirl Miss Fortune is just missing a pole. She does not make a convincing cowgirl. High Noon Twisted Fate actually looks like he belongs in the Wild West. Sheriff Caitlyn is wearing hotpants.
• Officer Caitlyn is in many ways the most disappointing. She is in a position of authority. She is the Sheriff of Piltover, but she gets a stripper cop outfit. No officer in real life dresses like Caitlyn. They’d never be taken seriously. She could have been a badass. Real missed opportunity, here. Meanwhile Riot Graves, an outlaw, gets to be the real deal.
• Battle Bunny Riven is a Playboy Bunny. This is the most blatant one of them all. You can’t even pretend that this is anything but a stripper skin. I know it's a fan creation, but that doesn't give it a free pass.
• Prestigious LeBlanc is a Vegas showgirl. Magnificent Twisted Fate is an actual magician.
• French Maid Nidalee is something you’d see in a gentleman’s club.
• Heartseeker Vayne looks a tad goofy and over the top compared to Jack of Hearts Twisted Fate.
• Mistletoe LeBlanc, Candy Cane Miss Fortune, Snow Bunny Nidalee draw a strong contrast to Santa Gragas and Old St. Zilean.
• Sandstorm Katarina is a belly dancer. This one barely scrapes by on what I would count as a stripper skin.
• Red Card Katarina doesn’t dress like any referee I’ve ever seen. Fifa banned players from taking their shirts off.
• Kitty Kat Katarina reminds me of Halle Berry’s Catwoman, and that’s offensive on a whole new level.

Not a single male champion has a stripper skin. If I missed something, please let me know. You could have a sexy fireman or something. It’s something exclusive the female champions. It’s just one of the ways that women are treated differently.

Next, we will talk about the base design of champions. Miss Fortune and Ahri are flirtatious, and while that isn’t really a problem, there are no guys that tease or flirt. The following are champions that are sexualized, not just in skins, but in their default splash art.

• Zyra is technically a plant, but she is using a human body as a vessel; one that she flaunts.
• Syndra seems like she is into BDSM.
• Akali’s (rather large) breasts are barely covered by those strips of cloth. It’s completely impractical for a serious warrior. It's and easy fix if she just wore a sports bra underneath.
• LeBlanc's is kind of justified. She doesn't want you thinking clearly. I get it. But this is a list of champions who are sexualized, so I can't discount her.
• Sivir is wearing the most pointless armor of all time. She isn’t protecting any vital points.
• Sona’s boobs. Need I say more?
• Ahri at least has lore to justify her being a flirt. I like that she is foxy (ho ho ho), but when everyone is a bombshell, it has less meaning.
• Miss Fortune is hands down the most sexualized character in the game. In her new splash art it looks like her clothes don’t even cover her nipples. If we had more of a bird’s-eye-view, this game would probably have an AO rating
• Caitlyn should probably not shop in the children’s section and find something that fits. I wish the Sheriff of Piltover was someone I could take seriously.
• Fiora’s skin tight outfit accentuates her ass. She is flaunting her body, not using a proper fencing stance.
• Evelynn is wearing lingerie. She is literally walking around the fields of justice in her underwear. I guess she is relying on her stealth.
• Lux used to be a counterexample. She used to be.
• Morgana gets thinner and thinner, and her breasts get bigger and bigger. She is also wearing a bra to battle. Smart.
• Cassiopeia may not be human from the waist down, but if you are arguing that that disqualifies her, then you are arguing that mermaids are not a sexual fantasy to millions.
• Katarina screams ***. She has three stripper skins, but the default skin isn’t any less sexualized.
• Nidalee kind of has an excuse, since she is basically She-Tarzan.
• Janna even makes a phone *** reference, solidifying the portrayal of women as adult entertainment workers.
• Soraka’s old art was all about the side boob. Her new art is better, but she still breaks her spine in order to get our juices flowing.
• Sejuani seems to be immune to the cold. In fact, everyone from Freljord seems to be. She's also shoving her chest out.
• Ashe is better than Sejuani, at least.
• Varus. The only male champion that makes the list. More on why, later.

So here are the female champions that are not sexualized (much):

• Karma present herself as a sexual object. Her Sun Goddess skin is culturally appropriate, it doesn't matter that it shows skin if she isn't posing in a way that draws attention to it.
• Leona is wearing high heels to battle and her armor accentuates her figure a bit too much. Compare her to armored champions like Garen, Taric, Darius, ect. There is a noticeable difference. Still, Leona gets a passing grade.
• Kayle is perhaps the best portrayed female warrior. Her armor is actually practical. Her gender is secondary to how badass she is. She is like Samus Aran in so many ways (before Zero Suit).
• Shyvana is pretty well done. None of her skins betray how serious she is. She don't give a damn what you think about her appearance.
• Irelia is acceptable, in my opinion. Her Frostblade skin showcases her ass a little much, though. I really like that Aviator Irelia looks like a real pilot, and not a stripper parody of a pilot.
• Diana’s default look is fantastic. I am not thrilled about her Dark Valkyrie skin.

So there are six female champions that aren’t overtly sexualized, and 22 that are (Battle Bunny Riven and Heartseeker Vayne did them in). Over 78% of the adult human female champions are sexualized. That number is pretty freakin’ high.

The following are male champions that people use as examples of sexualized men. They may show skin, but being shirtless means nothing when they are morbidly obese or freakishly muscular. Female body builders are nasty. Male body builders are also nasty.

• Gragas. Everyone uses him as a joke example, but it’s frustrating for those of us trying to have a real conversation.
• Tryndamere is built like a rhino. Body builders are not conventionally attractive. He shows skin, but he doesn't care if you like what you see. That isn't his intent. His intent is to intimidate, not seduce.
• Pentakill Olaf is like Tryndamere. Male beauty is harder to define, but the types of men that are main stream attractive are the ones you'd see in Romantic Comedies or A&F Billboards. Bodybuilders are widely regarded as unattractive. Furthermore, he still isn't posing like every female on the sexy list.
• Lee Sin is shirtless, and not hideously muscular. Unlike the three champions above, he could be considered conventionally attractive. The reason he isn't, though, is because he is in a typical martial arts stance. He isn't posing. His shirtlessness is understood to be part of his fightingstyle, and he does nothing to draw attention to his physique. Presentation is everything.
• Ruthless Pantheon isn’t contorting his body in unnatural ways to show off his body. His physique is secondary to his battle prowess. There is nothing about this skin that suggests the artist wanted to make him look sexy, even if he isn’t wearing much. Just like Sun Goddess Karma, the fact that skin is exposed doesn't make you sexualized.
• Twisted Fate is suave, but his charm has nothing to do with his body, and more to do with his style. He is more romanticized than sexualized.
• Ezreal has boyish good looks, and he is a favorite amongst players who are attracted to males. But being attractive and being a sexual object is not the same thing. If it were, I’d have to change the verdict on all six of the female champions that have a passing grade, because they are all attractive. They just don't pose like they are in a photo shoot.

If you don’t agree with me, or you think I missed a champion or skin that should have made the list, let me know. I’m open to discussion. In fact, that's the entire reason I am posting this. I want this to turn into a discussion.

Varus made the sexy list because he has an attractive physique, and his nakedness doesn’t seem to serve any apparent function other than fanservice. Still, he is the only example I could find that meets these requirements. That is one male champion out of 28. That means 3.5% of male champions are sexualized, and 78.5% of female champions are sexualized. How can you tell me that there is no disparity? That everything is fine. How can you deny the fact that women are treated differently?

Moving on, let’s talk about body types. I won’t devote too much time to this, because there isn’t much to say, but when you look at the guys, you have skinny Shaco, bulky Tryndamere, obese Gragas, Athletic Talon, and everything inbetween. Female champions range from super model thin to anorexic supermodel. You can see Morgana’s rib cage. There really is only one body type that gets recycled with every female champion. Bust sizes may vary from moderately large and “you’ve got to be kidding me,” but the frame of the ladies is indistinguishable.

Next, I want to talk about apparent age of champions. The men enjoy a huge range; you have youthful Ezreal, who could pass for a teenager, to Zilean, who is ancient. Here are the champions that look middle aged or older:

• Darius is graying and wrinkles are forming. He looks like he is in his mid 40’s.
• Draven can’t be much younger. Early 40’s.
• Gangplank’s beard makes it hard to see his face, but he looks like he is at least late 30’s. His skins can age him quite a bit.
• Gragas can be anywhere between 30 and 50. It’s hard to tell.
• Graves looks at least 45. Jailbreak Graves looks even older.
• Ryze is tough to place, because he is blue, but if Tribal Ryze is his human form, dude looks 50+.
• Shaco looks like a creeper. The makeup makes him impossible to place, but his bone structure suggests that he is well past young-adulthood.
• Singed is definitely past his prime.
• Swain doesn’t look a day younger than 50.
• Tryndamere is at least 40.
• Udyr is certainly in his 50’s.
• Viktor’s prototype skin shows that he is graying.
• Zilean is a geezer. For someone with time powers, he makes no attempt to reverse his age.

Absent from this list is every single female champion. Diana looks the oldest, at maybe early 30’s. This is pretty indisputable proof that Riot has different design philosophies for male and female champions. I’m not asking Riot to make an ugly female champion just for the sake of making her ugly. I just don’t understand why every female champion has to be young, thin, and attractive, but they aren’t afraid to deviate from that mold when they are making a male champion. I tell you, I would absolutely love a Baba Yaga inspired champion. Ursula and Maleficent is extremely popular as far as Disney villains go, and everyone loves Lin Bei Fong from the The Legend of Korra, so it’s not like older ladies don’t have any appeal.

So Riot, what say you? I worked hard on this because I believe in you as a company. I’m really hoping this doesn’t go ignored.

Edit: I didn't do an adequate job of justifying why certain champions are considered sexualized, while other seemingly comparable champions or not. If a champion is contorting their body in a way that serves no other purpose than to be sexually suggestive, that's sexualization. That's why Fiora counts, and Lee Sin does not. If a character dresses in a way to accentuate their body in order to be sexually suggestive, that also counts. Syndra's cleavage counts, and Tryndamere's shirtlessness does not. Tryndamere is trying to intimidate you, not seduce you. I went ahead a redid some of the explanations for champions above to make it more clear.
this thread is silly =/ less girls play because they are less interested in games then males.. No matter what type of game.. Period.. Has 0 too do with their skins. The game is made by men for mostly men.. And the girls that don't play don't play because of the skins. Girls wear tight cloths in RL, this post suggesting more girls will play if you had eye candy for girls is silly... Do YOU play for the eye candy? No you play because you enjoy the game.


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APennyWorthwhile

Junior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rippyman View Post
The problem isn't that they are indistinguishable, the problem is they have identical body types. Imagine if all male human champions were all build like Garen. Kept their clothes and weapons, but were all the same kind of bulky stronk man. That would be pretty dang boring visually. Ironstylus has admitted this is a problem so I don't see why this is an argument at this point.
My problem is that old good designs are being lumped in with new bad designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Originally Posted by kenzoil
I haven't read the whole thread, but I have read some of the stuff that Ironstylus has addressed in this thread. To me, what is being stated about character design is very interesting. And I like to see the thought process being made in the riot feedback.

I want to address specifically character designer about how they are pushing proportions over shapes and it would be helpful to go back to pushing the basic shapes: Triangles, Circles, and squares. If you go back to early female character their shapes were pushed immensely to tell the story of the character with their silhouette alone. As an example, I am going to compare MF to Zyra (Old good design vs New Bad design [shape wise]). MF is very well designed character and her shapes represents her personality. She is an energetic female that runs into action and displays her presence. In short, she is a very active female. The designers pushed an abundance of triangles onto her shape.
It's best to address this in a bullet point format, so the list is as follows:
-triangle hat
-triangle lip of her boots
-triangle boot point
-triangle cloth around her forearm
-triangle thigh (her knee is abnormally small)
-Her stomach is a triangle (wide hips, skinny ribs)
- All the pushed triangle shapes of her overall volume are pushing up into her face and out through her hat making a statement that she is outgoing person.
-To represent her sturdiness in the face of danger, her torso is squared and shock and aww are squarish cylinders.
MF is one of my favorite designed female champs. Also, she WAS well animated. I will address that when animation is a topic, till then I will stick with character DESIGN.

Now lets break down Zyra's personality and Design. Zyra is an old mythical creature that captured an unsuspecting victim and took over their body. Zyra is an introvert in nature because of her life as a plant, and she is a smart creature that plots out her actions and executes them. Her design makes her look extrovert, energetic and bland. It's going be hard to break down the shapes of this character because her design is muddy, so I will try to point out her overall shape:
-Square Stomach
-Square torso
-parallelogram thigh (they are kind triangle too, it's very confusing)
-parallelogram calves (they are kind triangle too, it's very confusing)(Also, the legs are too skinny for a character that has been "rooted" for most of it's life, If anything her legs should be much bigger then the rest of her body, not lankier)
-Squared bicep
-Triangle Forearm
- Roundish triangle thorns (a very bad decision on a sinister character)
-Triangle head (point downwards, a very strong decision about a character that is "rooted")
-Overall she is top heavy which is counter intuitive to her lore and her personality. I could be wrong, and that's a problem when it's not clear in the character design.

MF shows that the character designer made strong decisions about her shape and how the shape represents her personality. On the other hand, Zyra is a bad example of effective character design, it feels like strong decisions of her personality and shapes were note made, and it shows. I am sure you guys put equal amount of time into both. But it shows that the older champion design was asking all the right question, how can we convey her past and personality with shapes. And the new champions shows that the character designers were asking the wrong question, how could we make her more plant like? instead of how to tell the story of the character using shapes.

Also, stop making male character that are primarily V shaped torso.

Anyways, this is my two cents, and I hope it was clear. And, It's hard to write about the conceptual psychological property of shapes and how to correct character designs to reflect a stronger knowledge of the subject. On a personal note, I am currently delving deeper into my understanding of the topic myself.

TL;DR Please push the basic shapes of champions.
I have no overly analytic response. You nailed it. GG.


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Vu Sugoi

Senior Member

10-10-2012

- Nurse Akali -
Akali isn't a stripper but because her nurse uniform is visually appealing, you make unjust remarks about it automatically being one. It's like me seeing a girl with large breast wearing a white tshirt and tight jeans. Should I assume shes a stripper because of her appearance just because she wants to wear something comfortable? Or a girl in a short skirt with a black mid cut top going to the clubs. Should I call her a **** because she looks like shes going out to get wild? No if people want to see a sexier shen, I'm sure riot would've made one. Shen in white jacket, shirtless in black slacks. BAM! Instant sexy I guess. But who wants to buy it? A small group of people would.

- Cowgirl Miss Fortune -
You unjustly and indirectly labeling her a stripper. Do you even know what cowboys wear? Would it be sexy if a girl wear them instead? Apparently you are because you and maybe a few others are labeling her that way. What are you comparing TF and MF with? Their splash? MF Cowgirl, TF looks like an outlaw. Should they look similar? no. Two different themes in the same setting.

- Officer Caitlyn -
I was disappointed with this one too because they made her too much of a bad ass in a skirt. Sheriff of Piltover? You mean you want her to look like her original skin? Well you're in luck because its in default! Or you can pick her sheriff skin. Just because she looks better in a skirt/hotpants than a long dark pants doesn't mean she has to pick the more realistic of the two. A fantasy game trying to be realistic? Might as well change the whole art direction to be “realistic”. Cait blasting the **** out of me while in a mini skirt? I'm B-ing because now I'm terrified of girls in skirts with a big gun who likes to head shot me. In my experience, I never see any graves skin but default... maybe no one cares much for the real deal Riot Graves?

- Battle Bunny Riven -
It's a easter theme. It's hard enough picking a champ to represent the holiday theme. What do you want her to be instead? In a giant bunny suit, slashing you to bits with a giant rabbit sword? Really realistic. Just because shes in fishnets and a one piece corset, why do you automatically assume shes a stripper? So what if she resembles a playboy bunny. She's mostly clothed and killed people with a rabbit sword with a rabbit ears and tail. Pretty awesome even though I wish they improved the splash and game model.



- Prestigious LeBlanc -


Hold up hold up hold up... you're telling me she's a showgirl... then TF who looks similar to her must be a showboy and strips right? I don't understand your point. Even magicians male and female must have the appearance to please the audience. Otherwise they would lose the audience attention and ruin the act.

- French Maid Nidalee -


You see french maid themes at some gentleman's club but you also see a lot of them at halloween. Are they all strippers? Should the french maids or maids who dress up like the french maid be happy about the remarks your making about them? You know what else can be seen at a gentleman's club? A clothed waitress, a female janitor, female dj, clothed female celecrity host.

- Heartseeker Vayne -


Once again, its a holiday theme and vayne was choosen because she like's to drive arrows into vampires heart. Sounds like a good cupid to me. Jack of Hearts is a play on Queen of Hearts from alice in wonderland. At least thats my understanding. He doesn't look like a king to me anyway. Two different themes.

- Mistletoe LeBlanc, Candy Cane Miss Fortune, Snow Bunny Nidalee draw a strong contrast to Santa Gragas and Old St. Zilean -
Another holiday/season theme. Let's make MF or LB santa elves too. You can still sexualize it. “Santa's Little Helpers” giggidy goo. You do know about snow bunnies/rabbits right? Thats where they playing on nidalee. It's a winter theme. If they didn't make any season themes for the girls, people would be complaining about it.

- Sandstorm Katarina -
Are you kidding me? Let's slap on a lot of clothes on sandstorm kat whos desert theme. Its ok she wont melt. No she wont have a hard time moving or spinning around in those clothes. Yeah make her look like shes from the north where its cold. People will still think shes from the desert. Theyll think shes a stripper from the north that way.

- Red Card Katarina -
She's cosplaying as a referee. I'm pretty sure referee don't participate in the games. Wait shes a real ref? She shouldn't be in LOL. She should be watching from the clouds with the RIOT gods.



- Kitty Kat Katarina -
Hello halloween theme. I kind of regret not getting this one but seriously, cosplaying as a cat or catgirl is one of the popular themes for females during halloween, Kat was perfect for it. Comparing someone awesome as kat dressed as a fuzzy catgirl with halle berry as catwoman in that horrible movie is like saying all girls only want you for your money.




You think the male champs aren't sexy but there are many girls that think they are. Barbarian Sion for one. He's not undead, fully built and has this dominating presence in his splash screen that some woman would drool over. Or pant with his beefy gladiator self. There are women that thinks that sexy. Maybe you're just wanting someone “realistic” like a sexy fireman or police man. Maybe a chip n dale skin for one of the champs I dont know. Maybe you ladies should get together and tell riot for more sexy male skins or something because I don't mind smashing people while being sexy.



- Zyra -
How does Zyra flaunt her body? Is it because she prance around instead of running normally? Or maybe you think her splash is too sexy? Because from the looks of her splash, it looks like shes trying to kill someone. Not that sexy. Poison Ivy is someone part plant. She's sexy. Go Plant Ladies!

- Syndra -
Uh I don't understand how you can make a remark like that. Usually those who are delving in dark magic tend to favor leather stuff in popular culture. Hence the whole goth scene etc. You make a bad point about this one.


- Akali’s (rather large) breasts are barely covered by those strips of cloth. It’s completely impractical for a serious warrior. It's and easy fix if she just wore a sports bra underneath. --


It's not as impractical are you think but normally they would have bandage wraps or fishnets underneath so this on akali I can agree on however I don't mind some side boob.

- LeBlanc's is kind of justified. She doesn't want you thinking clearly. I get it. But this is a list of champions who are sexualized, so I can't discount her. --


Sexualized as in how? Even though she's a magician, her role is a performer, hence why she has so much stage presence. I don't understand how removing that visual presence would make her more of a magician type.



- Sivir -
I think the whole point of sivir is the warrior princess type like xena but I agree, less armor. Maybe a few at the vital points. XD

- Sona’s boobs. -
What about Sona's boobs? Only the my favorite skin which is the penta kill that shows a lot of cleavage. The other skins cover a good portion of it.

- Ahri -
You're telling me ahri being flirty is pointless unless she has a body of a goddess? You're telling girls with average bodies being flirty is pointless? Your complaint does not match up with your overall point here.

- Miss Fortune -
She's Miss Fortune. She's been having good luck her whole life. She knows shes blessed with a great body. She knows she is awesome and kicks ass. She doesn't need to be humble and show humility because it coincide with her attitude. She gets what she wants. Her new splash fits her so damn well. Even if it is artistically exaggerated. If we want something realistic, well take a photo.

- Caitlyn -
Just because she wears a pants-less one piece doesn't mean shes even less of a threat. You're who idea on the ideal fighter that is threatening or intimidating is based on a male based characters who tend to appear menacing. You know what's the scariest thing in the world? A cute little girl with a rag doll who grins at you with piercing eyes who's her idea of fun is pushing you down the stairs. Don't know any like that but hey! That thought alone is scary.

- Fiora’s skin tight outfit accentuates her ass. She is flaunting her body, not using a proper fencing stance. -


Her tights coincide with fencers who wear tights. Please do your research. So she has a body. You're only talking about her splash that shows a small portion of the tights. You're staring at her ass? I'm more afraid of that rapier, diving at me double time. Not using proper fencing stance? Wtf... please research and compare. She also has to fight in her own style and “not like every other fencer”.

• Evelynn is wearing lingerie. She is literally walking around the fields of justice in her underwear. I guess she is relying on her stealth.


My dear... unless she has clothes that can stealth with her, she has to wear less so she wont be seen easily. In this case, you're lucky they gave her clothes because im fine without any. Also shes a seductress. Seductress WOULD flaunt their bodies. You going to complain about her flaunting it while shes invisible? Because I wish I could see what you're complaining about most of the time.

- Lux used to be a counterexample. She used to be. -


What's wrong? Skirt too short? She's showing to much leg? She's revealing too much arm? Too much face? I had this whole picture of Lux being a cute innocent girl until you started making me wonder in what way shes a stripper.

- Morgana gets thinner and thinner, and her breasts get bigger and bigger. She is also wearing a bra to battle. Smart. -


I'm sure theres room for battle bras in fantasy worlds. Morg didn't get thinner and thinner. They started drawing her better and better and just when you can see her details better, you complain. Riot. Can you blur out all the details for this lady? She has a problem with quality.

- Cassiopeia may not be human from the waist down, but if you are arguing that that disqualifies her, then you are arguing that mermaids are not a sexual fantasy to millions. -


Cass is half snake and youre asking a question about sexual fantasy when most men would have fantasy about 3 boob alien women from mars. You're point isn't really valid. You just boob envy.

- Katarina screams ***. She has three stripper skins, but the default skin isn’t any less sexualized.


It fits her character well. Stripper skin? I see none. What is up with you with all this hate with strippers? All assassins wear tight to somewhat tight leather because they cant have stuff flopping around when they go in for the kill. I'm sure kat likes to be slowed down or have her gear screwing up her lotus all the time.

- Nidalee kind of has an excuse, since she is basically She-Tarzan. -


You know many native tribes(american and afraican) are naked. Maybe we should yell at riot for not portraying nid realistically.

- Janna even makes a phone *** reference, solidifying the portrayal of women as adult entertainment workers. -


It's a joke, get over it. Get some stem cells and grow a funny bone. There's men in the adult entertainment industry... too bad janna isn't male right? >_>

- Soraka’s old art was all about the side boob. Her new art is better, but she still breaks her spine in order to get our juices flowing. -


Whining about trivial things. I do miss the side boob but I enjoy the new visuals Riot worked hard on. Are the one thats feeding the other team while worrying about these things?

- Sejuani seems to be immune to the cold. In fact, everyone from Freljord seems to be. She's also shoving her chest out. -


Her people have been living in the cold for a long time. It's like she has anti-freeze in her blood. You saying its impossible to survive in the cold like that? Why don't you tell the tibetian monks who purposely go out in the blizzard and able to survive with just a robe.

- Ashe is better than Sejuani, at least. -


Hello? They just worked on her so she should be better than the old. Better than Sej? Two different characters.




I could go on and on why the points you're making is only partially valid or not valid at all. You seem to be envious of the champs and unbiasedly call them strippers or indirectly calling them ****s. When you fail to make actual points that would make sense for real change in a fantasy theme game. Constantly trying to force realistic ideals that has no realistic benefits other than small boobies, less skin makes more girls happy. Hey, you know if more girls are actually playing to put in the input then future skins/champs might be in their favor however Riot has done their best to balance the plate and constantly sandwiching your face in the champions breasts with envious resentment does not do anything but show how jelly you are.


Riot, I agree to more variety of females without collapsing on the whims of a hand full of players(male and female) wanting less sexy females. More sexy, ugly, monster, animal, plant, bug, geological or etheral champs for males and females, HOWEVER EMPHASIS ON THE SEXY(more sexy females. Yes I went there, I love the ladies).


Farewell and Good night. Wasted too much LOL top typing this out.


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RockemSockem84

Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenvas View Post
have you seen the ridiculous drooling that happened just with the comic for oktoberfest-gragas, cause there was a sona who shows even more cleavage then usual? people who admited they would buy that skin even they wouldnt realy play sona. how can you respect someone like that? thats men making idiots of themselves.
women are good at that too, if you look at phenomenons like justin biber...
Honestly, boobs sell. Look at our media. Who cares if someone male or female would wanna buy a big cleavage Sona skin for 7 bucks or whatever it's their money. Does it make them an idiot? In your opinion yes apparently, but I beg to differ. Honestly it's all marketing. My real question is what do people honestly want to change? Or are you all *****ing for fun?


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Darkwahn

Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
*shrug* I'm not going to force you to consider it from, oh, any perspective that isn't the crudest adolescent male gamer demographic. I'm not going to continue repeating my reasoning over what has now become more than 200 pages of my presence in this thread, solely to convince you that images like these:

give you just as much female form to appreciate, without pandering, as images like these:

http://quirkilicious.deviantart.com/art/Nissa-325030238
http://larsmidnatt.deviantart.com/ar...ht-3-314155184
http://jiuge.deviantart.com/art/see-...econ-302371426 (lady on left isn't really applicable)
http://gooloo0-o.deviantart.com/art/...gain-300495616

(and this is really tame stuff, obviously)

and therefore are Just Better ceteris paribis.
paribus btw.


But that's likely the largest group of people playing this game, and likely where the largest amount of further audience is. If the majority prefer the skins to be left that way, then that's probably how they should remain. (Only bringing this up because of your ideas for changing a few skins. If you just want some future diversity that's fine. I've been bitching about broken spines and nonexistent waists myself.)

Your examples are alright, I didnt really particularly prefer either set, but only the first set had a few that I actually disliked, and wouldn't want as an art style for a female champ.

I dont see changing existing stuff as having enough upsides tbh, though making the supposedly wanted "diversity" would be fine with future champs imo.


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Vu Sugoi

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karolina View Post
Okay, you are right ! I tried to roll with the impression some people have of an "agenda" being sort of an evil conspiracy, that's why I said that. But you are correct so moving on !


No. Read the OP. No changes to what has already been created are suggested.
she made some suggestion and implied a full change on some. I read it a few times and rebuttle a bunch until i got tired of her boob envy name calling...


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Warrikon

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockemSockem84 View Post
Honestly, boobs sell. Look at our media. Who cares if someone male or female would wanna buy a big cleavage Sona skin for 7 bucks or whatever it's their money. Does it make them an idiot? In your opinion yes apparently, but I beg to differ. Honestly it's all marketing. My real question is what do people honestly want to change? Or are you all *****ing for fun?
boobs don't sell. they get auctioned, because so many people want them.