@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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MathMage

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwahn View Post
I'd be alright with some changes on that level, but there's no reason to do most of them. :P
Why? Because that's how little it takes to make a skin look like fanservice rather than serious business--and conversely, how little self-restraint it takes to make a skin serious. (And while they're not strictly zero-sum, there IS a massive tradeoff.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emailsúpport View Post
Ugh I really hope you die... A very painful death. You are a disgrace to the male gender. I have no idea what your mom, sister, girlfriend w/e fed you up with.
I can tell you are a reasonable person with logical arguments worth responding to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emailsúpport View Post
You want to "fix" all the female champions by giving them "realistic" bodies, so why not just give all champions realistic bodies. Make Tryndamere a skinny white boy with acne and do the same thing with Darius, also remove all the muscles from Jarvan and give him a round belly.
I'm so ****ing ridiculously tired of people who are too dumb to be able to see the difference between fiction and reality.
Just as there is a difference between an attractive female champion and an objectified or sexualized female champion, so too is there a difference between a muscular male champion and an objectified or power-fantasy male champion. The difference can be as small as the difference between Classic Ashe and Freljord Ashe--one small change in viewing angle and posture pretty much ruins the seriousness of the Freljord skin. On the other hand, it an be as large as the difference between Rugged Garen and Ruthless Pantheon, or between Diana's default skin and her Dark Valkyrie skin, or between Redeemed Riven and Battle Bunny Riven.

The use of the term 'realism' is misleading because it leads us to think 'like an average Joe in real life'. A more appropriate term is 'verisimilitude', which in this discussion boils down to asking whether a champion's appearance strains suspension of disbelief in his/her narrative context. This is akin to the 'difference between fiction and reality' that you harp on. Tryndamere having the appearance of a nerd stereotype lacks verisimilitude, because it would be INCREDIBLE strain on our suspension of disbelief for 'a skinny white boy with acne' to fulfill Tryndamere's physically demanding and heroic role.

Verisimilitude also depends on the context of the medium--anime eyes are unrealistic, but don't strain plausibility in the anime context. However, Riot has been trending towards hi-res, very detailed fantasy portraits. This context gives them some room for fantastic elements, but on the whole it does demand much more anatomical realism than other art forms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emailsúpport View Post
You do understand that they make champions that are appealing to the playerbase.
And in fact, the most females I know who play this game have the skimpiest skins on their characters. I asked my friend why she would possibly buy the Valentine Vayne when she could have bought the Dragonslayer skin instead.
Her response was that she likes to be pretty.
This is why I am entirely in favor of lighthearted and sexualized skin options. When being pretty is a choice, many people choose it. But when being sexualized is the mandatory default? It can turn people off.

You're reasoning by sampling solely the people who weren't turned off. You won't reach any valid statistical conclusions from that.

Furthermore, not only is this not about protecting women from sexy things, it's also not just about women, either. That was the point from my previous post--which you appear to vehemently disagree with.


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lelawala

Junior Member

10-09-2012

Alright. I think I got here a "little bit" too late. Sorry, I'm from EUW and I don't usually follow NA forums. This tweet https://twitter.com/moobeat/status/255610828944986112 made me aware of this thread. And no, I didn't read all 274 pages of it. Only op, red posts and few things around those.

So do I have problems as a female in this community? Yes, big ones. I once was a caster for a tournament. I won't be anywhere in the near future, because I'm still kinda mad about those comments I received. I'm kinda hoping that if (and when) Riot starts to take more serious way towards their female characters players will change their attitudes too.

Sometimes those "go make me a sammich" jokes can be fun, but usually they are not. It's also not fun always to be forced to play support. ;( (Getting around it, though.)

Another funny part about community is how they behave irl. It's normal that gamers ask me to do something nasty with them in irc or via pm, but in irl, at lans and cons? Yes, they do it. And that's the reason I can not cosplay most of my fav champions. It would be considered as a statement about me being a ****, and therefore ok to touch and grope and harass. And this pisses me off, a lot.

Lux has become the main example in this thread. IronStylus said that her new splash art is dynamic. I have a suggestion for you, twist yourself in that position and see yourself how dynamic it is.

And maybe do that with few more female poses.

Akali has a good stance, she looks like she's ready to fight. Fiora looks like she's gonna backstab herself while trying to break her spine. Lux doesn't have one in her new splash, but ironically our "reptile" Cass has. I don't know wtf Riven is doing.

Posing Janna as floating in the air and Orianna dancing or sitting is fine, because they are spell casters, they don't actually themselves take part in the fight. Same thing applies to Malzahar. But breaking spines? That's not cool man. Making a kick-ass fighter look like she's gonna kill herself or be surprised totally unguarded? Myeah..

So my point is that besides female champions being almost all abnormally thin and wearing next to nothing at all are also posed in non-dynamic and anatomically incorrect positions. I will try and get some photos of me trying to do those, just for the heck of it.

And maybe I'll do some more research about male poses and try those out too. Maybe I'll get a bulky man to try female ones. Hmm. So many options.


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonesiekarp View Post
hey look someone admitting to the idea that all of the dudes in LoL fall into stereotypes too.

but no one will ever be upset about that, right?
Ahem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
Hey, guys? Guys? Can we clear up just one thing here?

A lot of the male champions look stupid too. Kassadin's muscles aren't just ripped, they're WTF ridiculous. Tryndamere is a ****ing brick. Traditional Lee Sin has the same stupid upside-down pyramid torso that Tryndamere's old skin had. Varus is randomly naked down to where I'd expect his uppermost pubic hair to start showing through, if he still has any after what happened to him.

That doesn't mean the female champions don't have an issue with sexualization. It means BOTH genders have problems that should be fixed.

So can the feminists please stop arguing that the male skins have no significant problems? And can the Riot apologists please stop arguing that because male skins are also sexualized (debatable), that this somehow makes everything okay because both genders are equally badly portrayed?

Thanks.


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Apollo Starling

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Both genders have exaggerated body types yes

But in our society, a women's worth is judged by her body.

A man's worth is judged by his wealth.

Sexy curvy women with good breasts and butts and legs and small waists are the staples of desirability. That's why women get bulimic and have self-image issues, constantly having idealized images shoved in their faces because it makes men spend more money when they're staring at a pair of oversized breasts.

A man doesn't look at Tryndamere and start hating his own body, because that's not what determines his worth.


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I Got Fed

Member

10-09-2012

Well made, concise, intelligent post. That's worth an upvote in itself. I agree with you not as a male, but as a gamer who has seen this trend all his life. Although I have never had a problem with it, I do understand where you are coming from and why you feel the way you do. Seeing as we live in a world where gender equality isn't quite there yet in the real world, I doubt it will come in the virtual one anytime soon. Especially since the Internet is so blatantly sexist and male dominant. Hopefully this change in attitude could change in games and expand, but I hate to say it but I strongly doubt this happening in our lifetime.


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Gymnopédies

Junior Member

10-09-2012

Ok. Before I try to say something I want to clarify why your actual main point/thesis was. You're trying to say that females are less attracted to play League of Legends because of this sexuality balance issue right?
While I do believe the things you've listed--percentages, statistics, facts--are true, I just have a hard time understanding why it has to be the visuals that drive the female players away from the game... Though it is true that the ratio of good looking male characters to good looking female characters in League of Legends is really off the charts, I don't really believe that its just the sexuality that makes it a mostly male friendly community and a female hostile environment. It can definitely be a factor. Look at all video games out there--RPGs, FPS, Whatever--World of Warcraft definitely doesn't have the most attractive looking characters, yet it has a lot of female players. Counter Strike, Sudden Attack, being other examples do have quite a lot of female players. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, this just brings me to my next point which you might want to look into.
It may have to do with the concept of femininity and masculinity. Remember I said WoW back there? Both female and male characters aren't that attractive in my opinion. And I don't believe that it's purely intentional, but the concept of whats attractive and whats not, is kind of distorted.
Another reason why I think League of Legends have a hard time gaining more female clients is because of its genre kind of?
Anyways there are many reasons--superficial and profound--why there aren't many female players in League of Legends--relative or not, but I don't believe there should be a main focus on the visuals. League of Legends being a not very high graphics game, if there were to be a game with a bunch of good looking male players that a female would play, I think it would be anything else other than LOL. I think League of Legends should acquire more players through gameplay of anything else because Visuals isn't the main point of League of Legends.


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MTaur

Senior Member

10-09-2012

I don't think that Lux should take her top off and shoot two lasers from her nipples when she ults. Clearly this is because I do not have any concept of what "fantasy" is.


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTaur View Post
I don't think that Lux should take her top off and shoot two lasers from her nipples when she ults. Clearly this is because I do not have any concept of what "fantasy" is.
I...wait...what?


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Guys. Seriously
Its over
Go home.


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Karolina

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaella View Post
Guys. Seriously
Its over
Go home.
It ain't over till the fat lady sings !



oh snap ! we have no fat lady !