@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Zenbear

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stark Midnight View Post
To be fair historically female ninjas actually were very revealing clothes. However most almost never entered combat and were information gatherers and spys.
Or were killer geisha but honestly it's not about realism


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clappersucks

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
Let me just point out that Irelia's armor, which exposes everything from the chest up, is still primarily a costume. We accept it because we don't get access to anything better--like, say, this:

http://mikeypetrov.deviantart.com/art/Magic-5-329582704


That there's anatomical realism, and then there's fantastic imagery...and then there's outright ridiculousness.
Referencing Urgot I assume? Maybe Rammus?


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Thump

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Holy **** that was a lot of well composed, extremely well thought-out points and a lot of data to back it up. I very much salute you! This is the stuff that's actually super useful for people like me in a position to help define our body types. I love this information and this amount of it because I can look and be like.. "Oh hey, I think I see where we can fill in some gaps!" You've actually saved me some work, and I owe you a coffee.

Funny thing is that a very nice young lady came and talked to me on the floor of the finals about this very same issue. She made similar points which I.. ya know.. agreed with, like I tend to on these subjects. That said, I don't think I can possibly address the entirely of this pose aside from stating what I've stated before. I believe we need to have breadth, depth and contrast in our characters. We need to have archetypal characters and non-conventional. This goes the same for body types, in this particular case, female body types.

Recently I've been doing some core exploratory work on our champions, past and present. I've developed an even more concrete belief that we need to vary female forms as our game angle requires pretty drastic differentiation in proportions between characters, especially females, to make them truly read as different. Right now, on paper, many of our females read differently, but when plugged into game angle they read as very similar body types. Diana, though having a pretty curvy lower body (larger thighs) and trimmer upper body with smaller breasts still looks in the same general category as Syndra though she's pretty overall standard voluptuous. My bad there. I might have pushed proportions on Diana even further. In fact, I'd like to go back to Diana and push proportions. I think we've standardized our females far too much, producing mainly costume changes. I really want us to focus on stylizing our females as much as we do with our males.

Make no mistake, this is something we have our eye on. I had a discussion with our Art Director about this issue just the other day. We want that barbarian woman who can smash any guy she might encounter, we want us to get the spindly tank-girl type who's far less exposed, we want utilitarian, we want majestic, we want creepy, we want it all. We also do want sexy, in all it's variations.

You also brought up something in there interesting about Varus. He is one of the only examples we have of a different take on males. We tend to make our males of sort of three types. Athletic, Heroic, or Hulk. So, Singed, Garen, and Mundo respectively. That generalization but there you have it. Varus hits a great sweet spot. He's quite androgynous, a bit more anime archetype. He's sleek, trim and mildly feminine, but dang is that ever sexy as far as Iím concerned! Basically, anything Riot Taco Storm can cosplay as is something I'd really love to have more experiments like.

Iím not quite sure Iíve hit on all or any of your points aside from providing you an assurance that weíre taking a hard look at our champions and some stuff is going to change as we go. As always Iíd love to keep this conversation going and see what more points come up in this thread. I apologize for not hitting everything but Iíve just gotten back from the finals which has been a rigorous thing today to say the least. Iím a little hug-drunk right now.

I really, REALLY appreciate all the hard work and analysis you put into this. It has certainly not gone unnoticed! This is information that I like to act on and I thank you for it!

I'll try to hit on more points in smaller doses.
This x1000, very well though out and constructed. +1 to you man.


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Stark Midnight

Senior Member

10-08-2012

MathMage that outfit is ugly as hell, if your going to suggest better female armor at least do a better job of it. For example the new victorious Janna skin is a skin thats not revealing yet is extremely well made. To be blunt a skin has to be either bad ass or look good to sell, not fugly as all hell.


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IAmOnYourSide

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Junior Member

10-08-2012

Honestly, I don't get what all the fuss is about. I think Riot has been doing a good job of female character design. Honestly, the female character designs are really well thought out in my opinion.

For those people pointing out Sejuani, they also don't realize that Summoner's Rift isn't a cold and icy place. Either way, LoL is a fantasy not real life.

I don't think the problem is that females are over sexualized in this game. It's just what makes the characters attractive. Is it really such a sin to enjoy beauty? As an artist myself, I really appreciate when game designers put extra effort to make the game beautiful to the eyes.

Sometimes I really think the player base of LoL is bipolar. On one hand they want remakes of old characters with poorly drawn graphics to today's standards, on the other hand players are complaining that some characters look too attractive. What the hell do you want?


EDIT:

As someone already said, female ninjas historically wore VERY revealing clothes or dressed very beautifully. Many times they used their beauty to bait targets to assassinate them.


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stark Midnight View Post
MathMage that outfit is ugly as hell, if your going to suggest better female armor at least do a better job of it. For example the new victorious Janna skin is a skin thats not revealing yet is extremely well made. To be blunt a skin has to be either bad ass or look good to sell, not fugly as all hell.
.


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmOnYourSide View Post
Honestly, I don't get what all the fuss is about. I think Riot has been doing a good job of female character design. Honestly, the female character designs are really well thought out in my opinion.

For those people pointing out Sejuani, they also don't realize that Summoner's Rift isn't a cold and icy place. Either way, LoL is a fantasy not real life.

I don't think the problem is that females are over sexualized in this game. It's just what makes the characters attractive. Is it really such a sin to enjoy beauty? As an artist myself, I really appreciate when game designers put extra effort to make the game beautiful to the eyes.

Sometimes I really think the player base of LoL is bipolar. On one hand they want remakes of old characters with poorly drawn graphics to today's standards, on the other hand players are complaining that some characters look too attractive. What the hell do you want?
>ironstylus is pointing out sejauni
>mostly because her picture depicts her in the ****ing tundra, not SR

u dumb?


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Karolina

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmOnYourSide View Post
Honestly, I don't get what all the fuss is about. I think Riot has been doing a good job of female character design. Honestly, the female character designs are really well thought out in my opinion.

For those people pointing out Sejuani, they also don't realize that Summoner's Rift isn't a cold and icy place. Either way, LoL is a fantasy not real life.

I don't think the problem is that females are over sexualized in this game. It's just what makes the characters attractive. Is it really such a sin to enjoy beauty? As an artist myself, I really appreciate when game designers put extra effort to make the game beautiful to the eyes.

Sometimes I really think the player base of LoL is bipolar. On one hand they want remakes of old characters with poorly drawn graphics to today's standards, on the other hand players are complaining that some characters look too attractive. What the hell do you want?
Different types of attractive/beautiful/nice. It's not about "make them ugleeeh" just... "don't make them all the same".


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteglint3 View Post
first, as a side point, Sivir is nod/rip off of Xena Warrior princess (hence the skin) and thats why she dresses like that.
And Ruthless Pantheon is a He-Man nod. They're ridiculous because their references are ridiculous. Doesn't mean they aren't ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteglint3 View Post
second, you cannot pass the point of subjective acceptability, because its subjective.
An example of a bounded subjective frame is eating. We can agree to disagree on what food tastes best because it's subjective, but it's an objective fact that turds are bad food.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteglint3 View Post
I do find it funny you make such odd concessions, Leona's retarded dress is bad, but Jarvan's armor and garen's armor is okay, because it doesn't furthur the current arguement?
As far as Garen's armor is concerned, I'm willing to put up with merely oversized armor. Jarvan's armor is just dumb and I'd rather his Dragonslayer armor shape, or something like it, was the default.

Leona's armor is objectively worthless for anything but a costume, oversized or no, and when we're nominally talking about fantasy armor, then yes, we've passed beyond the bounds of subjectivity.


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stark Midnight View Post
MathMage that outfit is ugly as hell, if your going to suggest better female armor at least do a better job of it. For example the new victorious Janna skin is a skin thats not revealing yet is extremely well made. To be blunt a skin has to be either bad ass or look good to sell, not fugly as all hell.
I was speaking purely in terms of realism. If we want prettier armor that's still realistic, I have plenty of examples of that too, such as:

http://anndr.deviantart.com/art/Captain-317072827