@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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MathMage

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Eleven View Post
We've now devolved from her pose is sexual to her pose is wrong for fencing ... which is stupid ... because complaining that a cartoon pose is wrong is ... well ... apparently a red herring in your opinion.
We got ON the subject of fencing because some idiot earlier in the thread said Fiora's pose wasn't sexual because it was just a proper fencing pose and all us complainers were just ignorant of fencing.

So saying NOW that it's OKAY for Fiora's pose to be fencing-inaccurate because it's cartoonishly dynamic and unrealistic is missing the point of the discussion so far you landed on another planet.

It's a T&A pose. Not a fencing pose, not an action pose, not a ****ing cartoon. It's fanservice. Deal. With. It.

(For people who are bewildered by my tone, this discussion started over fifty pages ago and people are STILL in denial over Fiora's pose. I'm tired of humoring their Gish gallops and red herrings and straight-up stupidity.)


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Oberic

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Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
1) Workin' on it.

2) Glasses? I agree with the Roosevelt thing.

3) The Bravo Ray has you covered, as does one of our newest concept artists, Gem.
Just curious, is Gem... outrageous?


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MathMage

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emailsúpport View Post
All that's available is definitely not fanservice. I don't look at Cassiopeia as fanservice neither do I when I look at Leona, Riven, Vayne, Akali, Irelia, Diana and so on.
One point is valid, we might need more fan service for females, but don't expect the fan service to have gay posing cause Riot would just lose more money than gain by doing so.
Fanservice should not be the majority. It's debatable whether it should even be a large minority, but we're not even there yet.

Also, some of those examples just show how low we're willing to stoop before we call something fanservice. Leona fulfilled gamer demands for a female tank while still dressing in an impractical costume (rigid metal dress and a metal bra). Irelia gets away with similarly impractical boob armor because, hey, at least she has armor and the rest of her body's covered. And Akali? Really?

But then, I think I have a fundamentally different attitude towards gaming fanservice than you do. I just don't see it helping the industry attract women OR men to the pastime. At best it's a post hoc justification for people who are already mired in fanservice, and for the marketers who decide to provide it.


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Kuroi kiri

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
Kayle is an angel with invulnerability powers. She probably doesn't even need armor (her sister doesn't), but she just wears that to be an intimidating BAMF.
in one of the JoJ thingys it sad kayles powers had recently been weakened due to her armour being damaged


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Reiver

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Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
From the ground up: Leona, Talon, Skarner, Xerath, Graves, Diana.

Concept/Production art: Sejuani, Ahri, Viktor, Volibear.

Skins: Midnight Ahri, Subterranean Nautilus, and a pile of others you haven't seen.

Currently working on 2 other champions in the pipeline and a few reworks.

The next champion you'll see that I worked on.. good god.. it's got me written all over it.
Iron Stylus:

Attempts to create a full list of all the stuff he's done.
Totally forgets Iron Solari Leona.


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Emailsúpport

Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaineScarlet View Post
I really do appreciate the attention that IronStylus has given to this issue. Maybe I'll start to see male champions that I can drool over other than Varus or Talon.

I can also easily name many female champs who can live without their size D's. But no telling how the fans will live.
This is what I find so dumb. I do support that you want more fan service like beach Garen and maybe more serious armor on more female champions in forms of skins even though there are just as many female champions with normal battle suits as human male ones. Keep in mind, Gragas is not human.
But that you honestly want to change champions because their boobs are too big? Come on, wasn't it just their clothing that was the problem here? If you want champions to have smaller boobs I want the male champions to be skinny and small. Cause I don't know any man who have a similar body to any of the male champions in League except for maybe Ezreal or Varus.


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Emailsúpport

Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
Fanservice should not be the majority. It's debatable whether it should even be a large minority, but we're not even there yet.

Also, some of those examples just show how low we're willing to stoop before we call something fanservice. Leona fulfilled gamer demands for a female tank while still dressing in an impractical costume (rigid metal dress and a metal bra). Irelia gets away with similarly impractical boob armor because, hey, at least she has armor and the rest of her body's covered. And Akali? Really?

But then, I think I have a fundamentally different attitude towards gaming fanservice than you do. I just don't see it helping the industry attract women OR men to the pastime. At best it's a post hoc justification for people who are already mired in fanservice, and for the marketers who decide to provide it.
Meh, complaining that you can almost see their boobs is like if I complained that you can see men's arms. Why is it such a big deal to you? If females did have armor, WHICH THEY NOT EVEN DID BACK IN TIME I'm sure they would not look like the armor men had because women and men have different body types no matter what.


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Gespens

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Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
• Syndra seems like she is into BDSM.
• Akali’s (rather large) breasts are barely covered by those strips of cloth. It’s completely impractical for a serious warrior. It's and easy fix if she just wore a sports bra underneath.
• LeBlanc's is kind of justified. She doesn't want you thinking clearly. I get it. But this is a list of champions who are sexualized, so I can't discount her.
• Sivir is wearing the most pointless armor of all time. She isn’t protecting any vital points.
• Sona’s boobs. Need I say more?
• Ahri at least has lore to justify her being a flirt. I like that she is foxy (ho ho ho), but when everyone is a bombshell, it has less meaning.
• Evelynn is wearing lingerie. She is literally walking around the fields of justice in her underwear. I guess she is relying on her stealth.
• Lux used to be a counterexample. She used to be.
• Morgana gets thinner and thinner, and her breasts get bigger and bigger. She is also wearing a bra to battle. Smart.
• Cassiopeia may not be human from the waist down, but if you are arguing that that disqualifies her, then you are arguing that mermaids are not a sexual fantasy to millions.
• Nidalee kind of has an excuse, since she is basically She-Tarzan.
• Soraka’s old art was all about the side boob. Her new art is better, but she still breaks her spine in order to get our juices flowing.
I don't think you know what BDSM is.

Sideboob ninjas are way more practical than nearly every ninja in pop culture that is not Ryu Hayabusa. In addition, as an assassin it is her job to get close. If you want to get really technical, Shen and Kennen have less practical suits.

You contradict yourself later with your LeBlanc comment... We will get to that.

Sivir was designed to be a reference to Xena obviously. And that armor is impractical? Go google 'Female Kirin Armor' from Monster Hunter.

Yes. Do say more. As a guy who likes boobs, I hardly notice Sona's boobs becaue in her splash I am more distracted by her face. And even then, HOLY ****, AN IDOL WEARING CLOTHES THAT GARNER ATTENTION!

How the **** does Ahri get a free pass when... actually, I'll get to that next...

With Eve. You give Ahri a pass on being sexualized and not Eve, who is described as being similar to a vampire in her lore-- a creature that in recent year has reached Suc/Incubus levels of sexualization. She walks around in lingerie? So what?

Lux still is a counter example. Modest chest, no skin showing, no sexualized lines, etc.

>Morg is also wearing a bra to battle
You do realize that both she and Eve are the closest that LoL will get to succubi, right? Would you rather she went commando?

Remember how I said Eve not getting a pass while Ahri did because Lore? It is even more stupid with Cassio.

And you give Nid a pass too. EQUALITY!

I don't think people can into redlining art. I am hardly flexible, but I can mimic Soraka's pose fine. Same with Lux.

Quote:
• Gragas. Everyone uses him as a joke example, but it’s frustrating for those of us trying to have a real conversation.
• Tryndamere is built like a rhino. Body builders are not conventionally attractive. He shows skin, but he doesn't care if you like what you see. That isn't his intent. His intent is to intimidate, not seduce.
• Pentakill Olaf is like Tryndamere. Male beauty is harder to define, but the types of men that are main stream attractive are the ones you'd see in Romantic Comedies or A&F Billboards. Bodybuilders are widely regarded as unattractive. Furthermore, he still isn't posing like every female on the sexy list.
• Lee Sin is shirtless, and not hideously muscular. Unlike the three champions above, he could be considered conventionally attractive. The reason he isn't, though, is because he is in a typical martial arts stance. He isn't posing. His shirtlessness is understood to be part of his fightingstyle, and he does nothing to draw attention to his physique. Presentation is everything.
• Ruthless Pantheon isn’t contorting his body in unnatural ways to show off his body. His physique is secondary to his battle prowess. There is nothing about this skin that suggests the artist wanted to make him look sexy, even if he isn’t wearing much. Just like Sun Goddess Karma, the fact that skin is exposed doesn't make you sexualized.
• Twisted Fate is suave, but his charm has nothing to do with his body, and more to do with his style. He is more romanticized than sexualized.
• Ezreal has boyish good looks, and he is a favorite amongst players who are attracted to males. But being attractive and being a sexual object is not the same thing. If it were, I’d have to change the verdict on all six of the female champions that have a passing grade, because they are all attractive. They just don't pose like they are in a photo shoot.
Tryn has the manly dangerous look. Totally a female wet dream.

Pentakill Olaf is ZZ Top. Ask your parents and I'm sure they have stories about girls in that time who'd wet themselve over them.

Lee Sin = Bruce Lee. Guys go gay for him. And his pose in any martial arts, is ****ing awful. No balance. In addition, no martial arts require you to be shirtless for the style, despite what the movie say.

The fact that Ruthless Pantheon is half naked doesn't make him sexualized, even though he wears less than Morg or Eve? And he has DAT BULGE as well? I see you are totally unbiased and fair.

TF = Gambit and you'd be hard pressed to find a female comic fan who wouldn't throw themselves at the cajun card dealer.

Ezreal is your typical generic anime MC bishonen and is the weaboo champion to attract the females, just like how Sona can be such for the male weaboos, being a reference to Miku. Your argument holds no water.

Quote:
Body type Bs
using humanoids...

Females have: Monster Girl (Cassio), loli (Annie), graceful beauty (Sona), dangerous beauty (Kat/Fiora), motherly charm (Leona), etc.

Males have: Shota (Nunu) and various degrees of bulky badass. I think the only champs who are not bulky are Ez, Fizz, the Yordles (who are furries btw), non Blood-Lord Vlad... etc.

Oh and by the way, people can naturally start graying as early as sixteen. My dad did. Hair can gray depending on lifestyle, which in the case of people like Draven/Darius, could happen VERY early in their lives.

~~~

The reason why every single 'SEXISM IN LOL' argument falls flat on its face, is not because their arguments have holes. It is because it has no research.

SEXY and BEAUTY are things that vary from person to person. I for one don't find Sona sexy, but I find her gorgeous! Difference? When I think of Sona, I think of her gentle face first. Only champ that BOOBS come to mind is MF for me.

Each person finds different thing sexy. If anything, you girls have a bigger choice, because you get a larger amount of guys to fawn over. Guys have 1/5 of the champions and most of them in terms of art only get BOOBS as you say.

But BUST and HIPS are not something that make a character sexualized. It is how they are portrayed. How do they act? Lets use three examples, one obviously sexual, one ambiguously sexual and one who has nothing sexual about them.

Ahri: Her taunt, her Charm, her lore. All scream sexualization-- which is odd, since she is a Korean fox, but based off of Tamamo no Mae, who was supposed to be pretending to be some super woman.

Sona: Her joke? She rocks out. Her taunt? She basically flips the bird at you in music. her skill set? Different types of classical music terms. Her lore? Idol-ish with a touch of orphan moe~ In terms of design, yeah... boobs, slender waist, soft face...

Kayle: You can really only argue Judgement Kayle for having sideboob. Nothing about her design, lore, or line have anything sexual.

tl;dr

STOP BRINGING UP THIS STUPID ****ING ARGUMENT


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mogonk

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Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emailsúpport View Post
I'm sure they would not look like the armor men had because women and men have different body types no matter what.
Seriously?

Have you ever worn plate armor? It's not skintight. There's plenty of room for 95% of women's breasts in there.

Chain and scale are flexible, obviously. That stuff just drapes. No reason body type would be a big issue.

Men and women's bodies are really very similar. It's the portrayals of their bodies in media (like LoL) that exaggerates the differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
stuff
Wow, you really spent a lot of time on that.

That's...sad.

I'm sorry, I hit like 6 different things that demonstrated 6 different complete misunderstandings of the issue while reading...that thing you posted. And I simply do not have the energy to go through and explain all of that. Pick just one or two things to be wrong about in your next post please.


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IckyArkman

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Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
Who's asking them to remove the content that appeals to the majority of gamers? I certainly am not. I happen to love many of the skins I criticized. I'm only suggesting that Riot also include more content that appeals to other groups. And who's to say that the same people that like sexy young female champions won't also enjoy a granny champion? They aren't mutually exclusive.
Vayne looks like she could be pretty old.... Definitely gets the Office Lady rating lol. Really though it would be nice but fantasy is all about what people want to be.