@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Teckn0

Senior Member

10-07-2012

There is a lot of people in the world.

There is a lot of people in the world who play League Of Legends.

You can never make everyone happy, esp when the mass is big.

We love hearing everyone's opinions though!


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StunnedandSlayed

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetOwned247 View Post
How about this as a female champion?
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1...-mitsuko_1.jpg
You sure thats not a dude?


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-07-2012

ho hum, its not about outfits, about bodytypes


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GunnarOptiks

Member

10-07-2012

Whats next. "Im a girl, and im black. i feel its wrong there are no black girl champions'. Its a carton game. Go look at 100% of the anime out there. 99% of the girls have big **** and nice bodys. Maybe you should start going to the gym, and/or get implatns to make yourself fell more beatufill if you are this insecure.


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lemonchief

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by akorshikai View Post
oh unnaturally attractive features we cannot have those. im offended by unrealistic features. but hey i'm totally okay with a flying bird made of ice... like really. ready my other posts im not against this threat at all i actually encourage diversity but that argument was weak..
You're missing the point. It's not that the champions are unrealistic in terms of ****/waist ratio, it's that they're sexualized. It's not that Fiora's fabulous ass is fabulous, it's that the pose that she strikes in her default splash art is pushing her fabulous ass and **** directly into your face. I don't necessarily agree with them in terms of Fiora, but there is certainly evidence in other arts, like that of MF and MORGANA. The argument is not that it's not okay for women to have appealing bodies and voluptuous features (although, more diversity would be nice...you know...some muscular chick, some flat chested one, short, tall, etc) it's that Riot is shoving their features in our face.


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnarOptiks View Post
Whats next. "Im a girl, and im black. i feel its wrong there are no black girl champions'. Its a carton game. Go look at 100% of the anime out there. 99% of the girls have big **** and nice bodys. Maybe you should start going to the gym, and/or get implatns to make yourself fell more beatufill if you are this insecure.
Thats actually a REALLY bad example because Japan as a whole is far more sexist than the US.


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Obzidian

Member

10-07-2012

I'm going to just quote myself from the Pentakill Olaf thread and then make a few comments afterwards!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obzidian View Post

Have you noticed a trend in the posts in this thread? I have.

First, there are tons of people poking fun at the fact that people take issue with the lack of diversity in female representation in LoL. The joke, in and of itself, is dismissive of the concern. The butt of the joke is COMPLETELY people who raise a legitimate concern about a game they obviously care deeply about.

The second response you get is basically get over it. This takes the form of either, “its just a video game” as if the game (one of the most popular games in the world) exists in a vacuum. The other is chill out or don't play the game. These responses serve to de-legitimize the commentary. When they're directed at perceived females, they're “you're oversensitive” and when they're directed at perceived males they're “you're whiteknighting”. Again, the idea is that you cannot have a legitimate concern about this and the underlying idea is that the representation of one's gender and/or race in a form of popular culture doesn't matter. (This is patently untrue, see links later on.)

A third response is to attack a person just because they dared speak about it.

The final response is that someone brings up a few examples in order to attack a specific flaw in the argument while ignoring the overall argument. For example, “X character doesn't fit the body type that you're discussing, therefore your entire point that the majority of characters fit into the body type that you're discussing is void.”

Do you see the pattern? Everything serves to de-legitimize the argument rather than authentically address it.

If you've paid attention to posts on topic like this, you see the exact same response when someone brings up the lack of racial diversity in the game.

If you're someone who cares about the games and the topics at hand and you try to address this, you get tired of the incessant attacks upon your person and the constant fail to actually counter the argument. You're actually usually going to be hit really hard with personal attacks. See Anita Sarkeesian.

There are 105 champions in League of Legends. 32 are presented as female. There are, in fact, three differing body types for female champions. Those are:
1.) The Model: These champions fit traditional beauty standards with hourglass bodyshapes. They may be clothed or scantily clad but all their clothing is form-fitting and they are generally buxom. – the majority of female characters fit in this category. 27 in fact. Most of those champions are scantily clad and only two don't have completely skin tight outfits: Diana and Kayle. Even Leona's is skintight.
2.) The Cute: These are short, childlike characters – there are 4 of these: Annie, Lulu, Poppy & Tristana. Three yordles and a little girl.
3.) The Monster: These are non-humanoid creature types. There is 1: Anivia.

Furthermore, there's a strong similarity in how the Model females are all posed. The majority are posed in sexualized fashion, hips jutted out, breasts or butts pushed forward, bodies often contorted in ways that bodies don't actually work.

Proof? Here's the splash art.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Q...l-females1.png
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-G...l-females2.png
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-j...l-females3.png


When you look at male presented champions, you can't even break them down into so few categories. Sure, absolutely, there are a lot of bulky, hyper masculine characters. Some of these are ugly, some of these are conventionally, traditionally attractive. There are fat champions, skinny champions, monstrous champions, animal champions, old champions, young champions, there are cute champions, there are scantily clad champions, there are champions in loose clothing, there are champions in form-fitting clothing.

The men aren't even all posed similarity. Some are sitting, some are standing, some are zoomed in on their face, some aren't. Most, particularly in newer splash art, are in some form of action pose, but that's not even true for all of them.

Point? There is variety.
Here's your proof in the form of all the male splash art.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7...lol-males1.png
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-R...lol-males2.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--...lol-males3.png
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-m...lol-males4.png
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-D...lol-males5.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s...lol-males6.png


This isn't a non-existent or made up concern. There is clear, overwhelming evidence backing it up. Not only are there fewer female champions but of those champions, a certain body type and sexualized style is over represented whereas others are not. Meanwhile, we have arguments by Riot employees against including female variant champions like the Spider Queen.

The impact of these design choices does not exist in a vacuum and does have an impact upon the greater world as a whole. It does represent an ingrained sexism that exists not only in gaming culture but in the world. Recognizing and addressing this does not invalidate the wonderfulness of the game. It does, however, open the door for improvement and provides Riot with the chance to do something else revolutionary in the gaming community.

TLDR: Just watch these videos.
Tropes vs MovieBob

Nerd Sexism
Dear Riot concept artists, I'm not sure if you've seen this or not but when you're looking for body references for bodies to create for LoL I suggest you look at Howard Schartz and Beverly Ornstein's photography compilation titled “The Athlete”. You can google the images or just get the book. What they did was take photographs of various Olympians to show how athletic manifests in different body shapes.
Some examples from the collection:
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6099/6...0cfbe0f1_b.jpg
http://nutritionsuccess.org/blog/wp-...athletes03.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_le...q6u0o1_500.jpg

I think these are great references for building diverse artwork with humanoid body types.

Overall, there is a correlation between how people are treated in media and how they are treated in real life. I am so happy to hear the responses we're getting from Riot staff here and to hear the recognition that there really is essentially little to no variety in female body types and the way that women are portrayed in game.

So, thanks for the update, its good to hear that we may have some change coming.


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KimKardashianBot

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Member

10-07-2012

I don't often log in to comment, but I am now, if anyone even reads or likes this I'll be surprised, but that doesn't mean I don't want to discuss my feelings on the issue. I too have a female friend who plays this game, not once has she complained to me about female characters in the game, infact, the exact opposite, she often tells me how much she likes Lux, how fun she is to play. You sir, in my opinion, are over generalizing. I'm not disagreeing with you, alot of the champions do have a "sexy," for lack of a better word, skin. As IronStylus said, more often than not though, less clothing does not mean sexier. LeBlanc, for example. Her skins often show her skin, but that does not mean that I find her more sexy than I do "classy," she reeks of aristocracy, and I would argue that "sexy," although MAYBE apparent when you look for it, wouldn't be an adjective I'd use to describe her. Reds are not going out of their way to discriminate, especially stylus of all people. Also, in defense of Riot, you have to take into consideration that the majority of the players are male. I'm not by any means saying no girls play, or that far more men play than women, I'm simply saying that more men play than women, Riot is here to make money, not to run a gender war, if we, the community, ask for a skin that shows Riven looking like a bunny, than by all means, we get it. That's not Riot saying, "Hey, let's make Riven look like a stripper," (a word I think you abuse) but instead, it's giving us, the community, what we want. Now, for every "sexy" champion you stated, I'm sure there's an equally "non-sexy" champion or skin I can throw your way. Poppy (and all of her skins), Tristana (at least in my eyes), Defender Leona, Lux and all of her skins, Riven and most of her skins (except the battle-bunny), the list goes on. You really need to cut Riot some serious slack, especially IronStylus, he's down, without doubt, an absolutely amazing job making these skins. As the first reply said, the problem isn't in game or champion design, the problem is in the community, and I agree, women are griefed too much in this game, but that's not to say that a woman can't play this game and enjoy it as much as anyone else. I play with several girls, all of which have gender specific names and aren't griefed at all. You're really over-generalizing in my eyes. If you want Riot to design a champion with less "*** appeal" in mind, just say that. If you want Riot to focus on cleaning up sexist related griefing in the community, just say that, but you really have no reason to come in here and scream and yell about Riot, and the community in general, being sexist. I don't in any way treat women differently in games than I do men, that applies to all genres of the game. I'm also all for the Unprepared Garen skin, I got Rugged Garen, love that skin. I'm all for aiming some skins at women, but you have to understand that Riot's here partially to make money, and if sexy female skins are selling, that's what they'll make. I appreciate you coming on the forums and shedding light on the issue, cheers for that, but please don't over generalize. It's really uncalled for, Stylus even brought attention to the thread, so that really shows that Riot's heard your complaint, so let's not make them seem like the villain here. That's just my two (more like twenty) cents on the subject. Hopefully someone agrees, haha.

EDIT: If Stylus reads this, please make Human Nocturne. <3


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StunnedandSlayed

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaella View Post
Thats actually a REALLY bad example because Japan as a whole is far more sexist than the US.
We got a japanese culture major right here. Lookout.


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Shaella

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hey I JuOMFGBEES View Post
I don't often log in to comment, but I am now, if anyone even reads or likes this I'll be surprised, but that doesn't mean I don't want to discuss my feelings on the issue. I too have a female friend who plays this game, not once has she complained to me about female characters in the game, infact, the exact opposite, she often tells me how much she likes Lux, how fun she is to play. You sir, in my opinion, are over generalizing. I'm not disagreeing with you, alot of the champions do have a "sexy," for lack of a better word, skin. As IronStylus said, more often than not though, less clothing does not mean sexier. LeBlanc, for example. Her skins often show her skin, but that does not mean that I find her more sexy than I do "classy," she reeks of aristocracy, and I would argue that "sexy," although MAYBE apparent when you look for it, wouldn't be an adjective I'd use to describe her. Reds are not going out of their way to discriminate, especially stylus of all people. Also, in defense of Riot, you have to take into consideration that the majority of the players are male. I'm not by any means saying no girls play, or that far more men play than women, I'm simply saying that more men play than women, Riot is here to make money, not to run a gender war, if we, the community, ask for a skin that shows Riven looking like a bunny, than by all means, we get it. That's not Riot saying, "Hey, let's make Riven look like a stripper," (a word I think you abuse) but instead, it's giving us, the community, what we want. Now, for every "sexy" champion you stated, I'm sure there's an equally "non-sexy" champion or skin I can throw your way. Poppy (and all of her skins), Tristana (at least in my eyes), Defender Leona, Lux and all of her skins, Riven and most of her skins (except the battle-bunny), the list goes on. You really need to cut Riot some serious slack, especially IronStylus, he's down, without doubt, an absolutely amazing job making these skins. As the first reply said, the problem isn't in game or champion design, the problem is in the community, and I agree, women are griefed too much in this game, but that's not to say that a woman can't play this game and enjoy it as much as anyone else. I play with several girls, all of which have gender specific names and aren't griefed at all. You're really over-generalizing in my eyes. If you want Riot to design a champion with less "*** appeal" in mind, just say that. If you want Riot to focus on cleaning up sexist related griefing in the community, just say that, but you really have no reason to come in here and scream and yell about Riot, and the community in general, being sexist. I don't in any way treat women differently in games than I do men, that applies to all genres of the game. I'm also all for the Unprepared Garen skin, I got Rugged Garen, love that skin. I'm all for aiming some skins at women, but you have to understand that Riot's here partially to make money, and if sexy female skins are selling, that's what they'll make. I appreciate you coming on the forums and shedding light on the issue, cheers for that, but please don't over generalize. It's really uncalled for, Stylus even brought attention to the thread, so that really shows that Riot's heard your complaint, so let's not make them seem like the villain here. That's just my two (more like twenty) cents on the subject. Hopefully someone agrees, haha.
use the ****ing enter key