With The TF Art Upgrade, Can We Get A Minor AD TF Buff?

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CragBlade

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10-05-2012

I do kinda feel like people would just build hybrid TF if he had an AD ratio on his Q. He already has an AD + AP ratio on his W, so if he had it on his Q it would probably warrant Gunblade and possibly even Rageblade. Full on AP or AD might still do more damage anyway, so eh.


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Ahriman1

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10-05-2012

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Originally Posted by Zerocaliber View Post
...what?

First of all, I said bonus AD ratio not AD ratio. There is a major difference between the two. A bonus AD ratio only includes the AD you buy, not your base AD. In a typical game, you will have 220 AD by level 18 with Infinity Edge, Last Whisper, and a fully stacked Bloodthirster. That is a lot of gold worth of money to farm. At that point in the game, your 220 wild cards are not going to be chunking anyone's health. Mid game, you will see around an extra 100 damage, but that is it.

Second, AD carries don't need 550 range to be effective. Graves and Draven are both really strong and they can survive being that close with good positioning. Neither of them seem to have any problem with "having to get to close to do damage" or "getting instantly blown up", and Draven isn't exactly tanky. The inability to get in range argument lost a lot of ground when they buffed his AA to 525.

Frankly, your arguments just make you seem like a bad player, that you know nothing of what you are talking about, and that you are an *******. Good day sir.
Oh, well then. I suppose graves isn't innately far more tanky than TF, with far greater mobility. I also suppose that draven doesn't have greater mobility either, on that note, Draven has 550 range. AND is more tanky, I mean jesus, does AD TF have anything at all going for him in the base stat department? (the answer is no). Graves has more base HP, more HP scaling, more armor, and more armor scaling than TF. That is WITHOUT his passive. He has quick draw as well. Do you seriously believe that TF's issue isn't his ridiculously short range with lack of mobility? Certainly he has enough utility in his stun and ultimate, but he simply does not have the mobility to justify that short range.

Jesus christ, is your argument really "well you must be bad"? I'm gold, and my ability to comprehend this game supersedes my observable skill from play as well. I am mediocre at best, but I can analyze this game at a platinum and above level.

Lets take your AD ratio thing and consider some similar things: ashe's volley. Scales 1:1 with AD (not bonus) Has 200 shorter range, can hit a maximum of 7 targets, and none in a straight line (thus not reliably usable for farming). The base damage on volley? 40+10 per additional rank. The cooldown starts at 16 seconds and decreases by 3 seconds per rank. This makes it significantly more weak until level 5 or 7 when the ability really kicks in. Faster than wild cards, and thus harder to dodge.

Talon's Rake: both hits at every rank do the same exact base damage as TF's wild cards plus 1.2 bonus AD ratio and a slow. Considering the relative difficulty to land and spammability of wild cards, this seems to be in TF's favor in my eyes given a 1.0 bonus AD ratio. The difference between the range in the abilities? 800 range. TF more than doubles talon's range. Talon is also a MELEE champion. A downside TF fortunately does not have to deal with.

Oh, and lets not forget the fact that AD scaling abilities doing magic damage is not consistent thematically, and giving someone building as an AD carry a tool that scales off their AD that is countered by magic resist (YORICK) is simply uncool. I understand this isn't at all where your mind goes, but it is somewhat important to the game. Riot wants people that build AD to be able to be countered by armor. See: issues with irelia.

In short, good luck turning TF into an AD carry. To me the idea is similar to trying to turn teemo into an AD carry. It isn't going to happen without a major kit overhaul with much focus on base stats and ranges.


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KamiKaze425

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10-05-2012

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Originally Posted by Ahriman1 View Post
Oh, and lets not forget the fact that AD scaling abilities doing magic damage is not consistent thematically, and giving someone building as an AD carry a tool that scales off their AD that is countered by magic resist (YORICK) is simply uncool. I understand this isn't at all where your mind goes, but it is somewhat important to the game. Riot wants people that build AD to be able to be countered by armor. See: issues with irelia.
wanted to make a quick comment about that. recently made champs: darius' passive scales off AD and does magic damage, jayce's e scales off AD (100% bonus AD) and deals magic dmg. not sure if riot REALLY wants what you claim

edit: although, i do agree a 1.0 bonus ad ratio on wild cards is a bit much cuz of its cooldown and range. something like .7 would make more sense


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Ahriman1

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10-05-2012

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Originally Posted by KamiKaze425 View Post
wanted to make a quick comment about that. recently made champs: darius' passive scales off AD and does magic damage, jayce's e scales off AD (100% bonus AD) and deals magic dmg. not sure if riot REALLY wants what you claim

edit: although, i do agree a 1.0 bonus ad ratio on wild cards is a bit much cuz of its cooldown and range. something like .7 would make more sense
You're right in that they certainly dont have a problem making some abilities that scale off AD do magic damage (and the purpose of this is to in fact ensure that those champions do not put all their eggs in one basket, and get screwed the moment someone builds the tiniest hint of armor). What this guy is proposing is to make a major tool do this. Consider that while darius'es passive certainly does a lot of damage, it is not the par of wild cards. Nor is jayce's E. They are not spammable AoE farming tools that can single handedly be used to harass and force people out.


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Originally Posted by RadioAaron View Post
I do kinda feel like people would just build hybrid TF if he had an AD ratio on his Q. He already has an AD + AP ratio on his W, so if he had it on his Q it would probably warrant Gunblade and possibly even Rageblade. Full on AP or AD might still do more damage anyway, so eh.
The reason that hybrid builds are largely untouched is due to the fact that there isnt a hybrid item that does the crazy mutiplication of damage that IE and rabadons does for AD and AP builds respectively. Both AP and AP builds have these giant damage multiplying items (IE PD last whisper for AD, Rabadons and void staff for AP) that simply does not have an equal in the hybrid world. Until that changes (either the crazy multiplication items are removed, or hybrid gets one of their own) hybrid builds will largely unusable except for some specific cases such as old kayle and jax that just get crazy scaling from both AD and AP.

Ezreal is a similar case to what we would see in TF with AD ratios. One build would be more viable, and that is the one everyone would play, and no one would play hybrid.


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Zerocaliber

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10-05-2012

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Originally Posted by Ahriman1 View Post
Lots of junk not worth repeating.
Sorry, but I don't take kindly to morons who begin their phrase by telling someone to never do balance again. Frankly sir, I have probably done a lot more balance work than you have ever done.

And I still insist that you must not be a very good player if the best excuse for why TF can't be an AD champion is because he is to easily killed when someone plays him poorly and a team can't defend him. Newsflash, TF has something that a lot of AD carries dream of having, hard CC. If your team is doing their job and peeling for you, a well selected gold card should assure you are never reached by the enemy. And yes, while graves is a bit tankier, in most circumstances, if Graves gets caught and focused, he dies anyway. If he positions well, nobody reaches him and he does massive damage to a team. That is what it means to play the AD carry role.

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Oh, and lets not forget the fact that AD scaling abilities doing magic damage is not consistent thematically, and giving someone building as an AD carry a tool that scales off their AD that is countered by magic resist (YORICK) is simply uncool. I understand this isn't at all where your mind goes, but it is somewhat important to the game. Riot wants people that build AD to be able to be countered by armor. See: issues with irelia.
And I love this little gem. Corki, Ezreal, Kog'Maw, and MF all have abilities that do magic damage that scale off of their AD. That is already half of the AD carry roster for crying out loud. Get your facts straight before making statements like this or it makes you look foolish. The reason it exists is because it provides an alternative source of damage so that AD carries do not simply do physical damage.

And Irelia suffered from a hell of a lot more problems than doing to many different types of damage. The problem was that she had 3 types of damage, true, physical, and magical and they were all heavily entwined in her kit and all acted as primary damage sources with her. In the case of AD TF, he will still be doing primarily physical damage and about as much magic damage as the four AD carries I listed earlier.

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Talon's Rake: both hits at every rank do the same exact base damage as TF's wild cards plus 1.2 bonus AD ratio and a slow. Considering the relative difficulty to land and spammability of wild cards, this seems to be in TF's favor in my eyes given a 1.0 bonus AD ratio. The difference between the range in the abilities? 800 range. TF more than doubles talon's range. Talon is also a MELEE champion. A downside TF fortunately does not have to deal with.
And here you make another mistake of comparing one champion ability to another without taking the whole kit and their item choices into consideration. You also forget a lot of details. WC will most likely hit a lot fewer targets in a fight than rake will since it's AoE is so wide compared to the hitbox on WC. Not to mention that Talon is an AD caster NOT an AD carry. This means that Talon is going to be itemizing for as much AD as possible. In the case of Twisted Fate, he is fulfilling an AD carry role and so he is going to be investing large amounts of gold into stats like attack speed and crit chance. This means that Talon will amass high AD stats much faster than TF will.

So do you want to continue this little debate or are you done?


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Ahriman1

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10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by Zerocaliber View Post
And I love this little gem. Corki, Ezreal, Kog'Maw, and MF all have abilities that do magic damage that scale off of their AD.
Corki - yes. ultimate.

Ezreal - yes. ultimate.

Kog'maw - yes, ultimate.

MF - incorrect, her ultimate was changed to physical.

Oh my god I think I see a pattern. Also these examples DO NOT HELP YOU.

Ezreal's ULTIMATE? on an eighty second cooldown has the same bonus AD ratio that you are suggesting to put on TF's Q. AND THE DAMAGE SCALES DOWN BASED ON TARGETS HIT.

Oh, and this is no debate. People I debate with don't make consistent and obvious fact errors. I am telling you that you are wrong, not providing my opinions and trying to convince you of them.

And please do tell me more about why people are all playing AD carry TF, and not graves. They play graves because he is tanky, provides a heavy burst, has one of the most broken area control abilities in the game, has an excellent mobility skill that when capitalized on can be used a ton. I agree that good positioning is key, and that if a graves gets caught, he still dies. The difference between him and TF? Graves has the tools to actually keep from getting caught. TF does not. This is why no one will play him as an AD carry presently. Your suggested changes do nothing to resolve this essential problem, so they do not develop anything further in this game.


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Zerocaliber

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10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by Ahriman1 View Post
Corki - yes. ultimate.

Ezreal - yes. ultimate.

Kog'maw - yes, ultimate.

MF - incorrect, her ultimate was changed to physical.

Oh my god I think I see a pattern. Also these examples DO NOT HELP YOU.

Ezreal's ULTIMATE? on an eighty second cooldown has the same bonus AD ratio that you are suggesting to put on TF's Q. AND THE DAMAGE SCALES DOWN BASED ON TARGETS HIT.

Oh, and this is no debate. People I debate with don't make consistent and obvious fact errors. I am telling you that you are wrong, not providing my opinion and trying to convince you of them.
And I am telling you that you are wrong and giving you just as many reasons why. You don't get it do you? You can sit here and point fingers at me all day and continue to tell me why I am making inaccurate assumptions and false statements and I can do the same thing back at you. The key here is that I wouldn't have started my argument by telling you how much of an idiot you are. However, since you felt the need to initially start off your criticisms with pointless insults, it leads me to believe that you are desperately trying to prove you are superior to me (quite badly I am afraid) and continue to fight with me to redeem your earlier statements.

I also like I how I addressed each of your points and you only managed to come back slightly against a SINGLE one of mine. Where is your talon rebuttal hmm? And I love how you tell me that the examples don't help me, but don't even so much as attempt to explain why. If you really wanted to drive any semblance of a point you might have home, then I suggest you explain yourself.

Now, onto the discussion of the characters. MF, yes, but for a while she did magic damage and they actually changed it to physical to HELP HER OUT. What was that? O, that's right, they felt that it would increase her DPS by making her magic damage ultimate do physical damage.

And frankly, once again, I don't see how the fact that the magic damage is on their ultimate changes anything. We were talking about AD champions doing to much of another type of damage no? Corki and Kog'maw can both use their ultimates at least as often as TF can use WC, if not more. Kog'maw's is actually a very powerful and spammable one provided he can keep the mana for it up (not impossible if he acquires blue buff). They still are doing as much, if not more magic damage than TF is. TF sacrifices a lot of damage by having an entirely utility based ultimate, but that doesn't mean his actual abilities can't also do magic damage while scaling with AD. Why does it matter whether the damage source comes from an ultimate or an ability that isn't his ultimate? His main damage source will still be his auto attacks. But once again, you make the same fallacies, you are not looking at the entire kit as a whole. I guess I can't expect you to look at the big picture can I?

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And please do tell me more about why people are all playing AD carry TF, and not graves. They play graves because he is tanky, provides a heavy burst, has one of the most broken area control abilities in the game, has an excellent mobility skill that when capitalized on can be used a ton. I agree that good positioning is key, and that if a graves gets caught, he still dies. The difference between him and TF? Graves has the tools to actually keep from getting caught. TF does not. This is why no one will play him as an AD carry presently. Your suggested changes do nothing to resolve this essential problem, so they do not develop anything further in this game.
And when did I say this? Seriously, do you not realize how dumb this makes you sound? Why the hell would they play AD TF when they can play AD Graves at the moment. Isn't that the whole point of wanting to ask for buffs? Hmm...?!

What will these changes do for TF? They will make him into a little bit stronger poke and burst AD and allow him to fulfill the role of a CC'ing ADC that can poke. Graves doesn't have CC. I mentioned this to you. TF does. CC is an extremely important asset to have. Why do you think so many of the AD champions do not have it? And regardless, even if it doesn't make him a tier 1 ADC, it will let him have a niche that he can exploit should one choose to build him that way. Any more questions?


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Ahriman1

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10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by Zerocaliber View Post
And I am telling you that you are wrong and giving you just as many reasons why. You don't get it do you? You can sit here and point fingers at me all day and continue to tell me why I am making inaccurate assumptions and false statements and I can do the same thing back at you. The key here is that I wouldn't have started my argument by telling you how much of an idiot you are. However, since you felt the need to initially start off your criticisms with pointless insults, it leads me to believe that you are desperately trying to prove you are superior to me (quite badly I am afraid) and continue to fight with me to redeem your earlier statements.

I also like I how I addressed each of your points and you only managed to come back slightly against a SINGLE one of mine. Where is your talon rebuttal hmm? And I love how you tell em that the examples don't help me, but don't even so much as attempt to explain why. If you really wanted to drive any semblance of a point you might have home, then I suggest you explain yourself.

Now, onto the discussion of the characters. MF, yes, but for a while she did magic damage and they actually changed it to physical to HELP HER OUT. What was that? O, that's right, they felt that it would increase her DPS by making her magic damage ultimate do physical damage.

And frankly, once again, I don't see how the fact that the magic damage is on their ultimate changes anything. We were talking about AD champions doing to much of another type of damage no? Corki and Kog'maw can both use their ultimates at least as often as TF can use WC, if not more. Kog'maw's is actually a very powerful and spammable one provided he can keep the mana for it up (not impossible if he acquires blue buff). They still are doing as much, if not more magic damage than TF is. TF sacrifices a lot of damage by having an entirely utility based ultimate, but that doesn't mean his actual abilities can't also do magic damage while scaling with AD. Why does it matter whether the damage source comes from an ultimate or an ability that isn't his ultimate? His main damage source will still be his auto attacks. But once again, you make the same fallacies, you are not looking at the entire kit as a whole. I guess I can't expect you to look at the big picture can I?
They absolutely can use their abilities just as much if not more. However, they can't use their abilities to hit every single creep in a wave to do all the farming for them while also having a chance to hit a champion. They ALSO have far lesser scaling than you propose (.5 bonus AD scaling on kog's, and .2 (regular) or .3 (big one) for corki). They also both require good aim. Corki's missile doesn't pass through minions, and kog's ult requires some micromanagement to place right. TF's wild cards are cast and forget.

Oh, and my point in asking that was because you're asking for buffs in the wrong area. Graves isn't a viable AD carry because he has AD scaling wildcards (although he in fact does basically have that), he is viable because he was given the correct tools to allow him to AD carry.

Points you've made:
- I attack you a lot. Agreed, I do, because I feel like if you were unleashed and allowed to make the changes you come up with this game that I enjoy playing would fall apart quickly. I understand how uncool ad hominem is, but really, I do not care at this given instant.

- I must be a bad player because of the points that I make about TF not having the tools to be an AD carry. You're actually using ad hominem here yourself, which not only makes you hypocritical, but also makes you seem ridiculous, because I am spot on in my analysis of why TF simply doesn't work as an AD carry (bring that one up to morello, xypherous, or even someone as good at balance as jatt, and they'll agree that I'm at least not as far off the mark as you are)

- AD TF would be doing primarily physical damage. Yet you're giving him Talon's rake on a shorter cooldown longer range and as magic damage. He might be doing more total physical damage to the targets he is focusing, but his harassment with magic and total magic damage done would be way out of control. Why even build carry TF if you can just build AD TF and play the same role of caster TF better than you would as an AD carry (which you would, because AD carry TF would still be garbage for reasons noted above, he would just turn into AD caster TF, at which point I ask again, why not just play AP TF?)

Edit: and if you do not think that graves has CC, I do not know what to feel for you. Smoke screen is a seriously potent tool to have on your team, and not for the slow. Crowd control does not equal stuns. Consider the meaning of the words themselves.

Oh, and a thing to note about how our ad hominem differs: I attack you because your ideas (which ARE in fact the subject matter and are thus definitely relevant) are ****, and my attacks on you are based upon the idea that they are ****. I am not calling you stupid, I am not saying that you are bad at this game. I am telling you that these would be poor poor decisions. Certainly in a manner that is much more harsh than that, and you could (and did) extrapolate that I am saying that you are bad or something, but that really isn't the case. I suppose communication is two directions, and I am partly responsible for this, but I can't help it if you decide to interpret what I say as telling you that you are so bad.

Your attacks against me do nothing but say that I am a poor player, and thus do not even comprehend what you are saying, something that I understand to be irrelevant to the fact. I am not going to say you are wrong, because it doesn't matter if you are wrong. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand whether I am a platinum player or a guy who played 5 games as tryndamere in coop vs ai beginner mode.


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TheFunStopsHere

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10-06-2012

He is getting a buff, of sorts. His auto-attack in the visual work seems MUCH better.

I know that's really only a placebo change and I'm grasping at straws, but I hated TF's old auto-attack animation.


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Zerocaliber

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10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahriman1 View Post
AD TF would be doing primarily physical damage. Yet you're giving him Talon's rake on a shorter cooldown longer range and as magic damage. He might be doing more total physical damage to the targets he is focusing, but his harassment with magic and total magic damage done would be way out of control.
I am sorry, I didn't realize wildcards was that potent of an ability. I forgot how it just destroys everyone already with all of the AP TF players! I mean, it would be so scary if his wildcards did 40% less overall damage than it does in AP builds AND he had auto attacks to back it up! I mean, there is just no beating that!

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Why even build carry TF if you can just build AD TF and play the same role of caster TF better than you would as an AD carry (which you would, because AD carry TF would still be garbage for reasons noted above, he would just turn into AD caster TF, at which point I ask again, why not just play AP TF?)
You don't know how to play caster TF or AD TF if you think they would play the same way with that change. The changes in lane alone mean your role is something completely different. Not to mention the fact that maybe people would like to play other builds because they are different and bring something niche to the table? Why do people like to play AP Yi or AP Tristana? Hell, why do people like to play AP Ezreal?

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because I am spot on in my analysis of why TF simply doesn't work as an AD carry
I love your ego. Of course, none of my arguments were valid at all. I can't possibly shatter any of your perfectly constructed analysis because it has no flaws that exist. Everything I say is complete hogwash and makes no logical sense. You are perfect. My bad, how could I have possibly attempted to argue with you! People like you are just so...

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(bring that one up to morello, xypherous, or even someone as good at balance as jatt, and they'll agree that I'm at least not as far off the mark as you are)
Alright, go get them. That being said, how many times has Morello and the Riot balance team been wrong? Look at Rengar. I can pull out so many examples of where they made bad balancing decisions. That being said, what makes you so sure he would side with you?

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I do, because I feel like if you were unleashed and allowed to make the changes you come up with this game that I enjoy playing would fall apart quickly.
And I feel like it is people like you who make this game dull and who can't think outside the box for even a moment. You are the reason why we see less and less build paths and more cookie cutter characters whose builds are laid out perfectly for us.

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They ALSO have far lesser scaling than you propose (.5 bonus AD scaling on kog's, and .2 (regular) or .3 (big one) for corki).
Bothered to look at the cooldowns of those abilities?

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Oh, and my point in asking that was because you're asking for buffs in the wrong area. Graves isn't a viable AD carry because he has AD scaling wildcards (although he in fact does basically have that), he is viable because he was given the correct tools to allow him to AD carry.
Which is why I would like to see some of those tools given to TF. And unlike you, I believe those tools will accomplish just that.