Negative attitude at champion select

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Roalr

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Hello Riot,

I have read your concerns about a voting system, I came up with something that I believe meets your demands:

The Voting System

At the beginning of a season, every player is given 3 vote tokens. A vote token can be used to start a vote to kick a player out of the champion select lobby. Once a player has been kicked out of the lobby, an option for reporting him will be made available. The report will be presented at the tribunal, and it will include a copy of the pre-game chat and the list of champions and their summoner spells. Furthermore, the kicked player is forced to wait a few minutes before queuing again.

To prevent abuse of the system, the following rules would apply:

  • A player may only initiate 1 vote per day.
  • Members of a premade are not allowed to initiate a vote. However, an other player on the team who isn't part of a premade may start a vote.
  • All the players on the team must agree for the vote to pass (4 votes required, like surrendering).
  • A vote token is removed from the player who initiates the vote. If the reported player is found guilty at the tribunal, the token is restored to the player who initiated the vote. At any given time, a player will have in his possession a maximum of 3 vote tokens. If the vote does not pass, the player who initiated the vote loses his token with no chance of getting it back until the beginning of a new season.
  • Players who participate in the vote do not lose a token, it is only the player who starts the vote that consumes a token.

Riot's Concerns

Quote:
In ranked match, a team could artificially use the voting system to selectively match make with team that they perceived to be weaker, or to use the system to give them an “edge” in match making. Some examples are: “the other side banned my favorite champion, let’s use the vote system to queue dodge” or “they picked my best champion, let’s use the vote system to queue dodge”, “the other side got some high elo players, let’s dodge use the vote system”.
By giving a very limited amount of vote tokens to players per season, they would have to carefully use their tokens and would be far less likely to use them to abuse the system. Even if they did, they would only be allowed to do it a very few times per season.

Quote:
In regions that are with culturally, racially, religiously or linguistically diverse population, this system may enable a form of discrimination. A majority can vote kick a player who is not from their country, do not speak their language, do not believe in their religion, or do not belong to the same race. Think about our EU servers, how many countries falls under the EU server region?
Refer to answer above.

Quote:
There is a concern for voting percentage. A 4 man SR premade could kick any one they want regardless if the 5th person is a troll or not. This is especially true in regions where ranked team does not exist, and “premade” still exist. Same concept applies to ranked TT, a premade can out-vote the third player with impunity.
This situation will not exist if premades aren't allowed to start a vote.

Quote:
There is also a concern that this system’s operational effectiveness is limited. Trolls are not dumb, once they found out such system exist, they will just be “nice” during champion selection and start trolling right afterwards.
This can be said of many systems, however, it does not make the system pointless. I'll give you an example: some players start playing with the intention of doing their best, however a situation arises, and they get mad, they then decide to troll their team and it eventually leads to a loss. The system used to deal with that is the report option and the tribunal. Did the troll get around the system for that particular game? Yes, but not for long as he will eventually be judged. The same goes for my voting system.

Quote:
Time limit on champion select. If we start a vote on one side, and let’s say each person have 10 seconds to press “vote” button. That’s 50 seconds per side for a SR game without any other champion select functionalities getting triggered. The whole champion selection process could take much longer than the current system. This will affect player experience (since many consider the ranked champion selection process is too long already)
Why give each person 10 seconds to vote? You could simply give a global 15 second timer for everyone on the team to vote. Also again, by severely limiting the amount of vote tokens given per season, this would not be abused.


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Amélie Poulain

Senior Member

10-03-2012

a system like this -should- be in place, but it doesn't because it can easily be abused

(ie: "fk, our team comp sucks... let's vote veto <player> so we dont lose elo")


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Roalr

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Which is why it's limited to 3 votes a season, a number which can be changed depending on how it works out.

I do see however how a player could be blamed by the team and kicked like you said. But do think that the person initiating the vote would lose his veto for the season if the player he reports is not found guilty

The goal is to give so few voting tokens that players would be pushed to only use it when they need it, therefore there wouldn't be any extra left for abuse.


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Roalr

Senior Member

10-05-2012

I have updated my thread to respond to Riot's concerns


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Pizza on a Bun

Senior Member

10-05-2012

I would deeply enjoy using this on the solo queue guys that check your profile while in banning/champselect.

I hate it when people judge you buy your recent history and call you bad.

I also find it ironic how they try to say that you're bad and yet they're in the same game as you. :P


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Roalr

Senior Member

10-05-2012

That's not the point of this system. The goal here is to kick players who for example pick a mid champion when there's already one on the team. Or to kick a player who's trolling.

That's why you're given only a few tokens a season. Also you need to have 3 other members agreeing with you to vote out a particular player or your token is wasted. If the vote doesn't pass the player stays in the game and you've lost your token for the season. You only get 3 tokens a season so you have to use them very carefully


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Awaken Easley

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roalr View Post
That's not the point of this system. The goal here is to kick players who for example pick a mid champion when there's already one on the team. Or to kick a player who's trolling.

That's why you're given only a few tokens a season. Also you need to have 3 other members agreeing with you to vote out a particular player or your token is wasted. If the vote doesn't pass the player stays in the game and you've lost your token for the season. You only get 3 tokens a season so you have to use them very carefully
Technically it is the point.

The players casting judgment on you in champ select to bully picks in their personal favor, are just as deconstructive to the team ( at least in the eyes of the GD and their 'attitude' agenda ) as the ones actually trolling with their pick.


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Roalr

Senior Member

10-05-2012

I guess you're right, I conceived the system as a way to kick out players who ruin the gaming experience.

However, you'd have to convince the other members of the team that he's not worth having on the team, which is harder than convincing your team that the guy who picked a second mid is trolling


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IS13c7fafe7804f7429d10e

Member

10-05-2012

Well, it's apparent you were more thoughtful than others when suggesting this.

Quote:
That's not the point of this system. The goal here is to kick players who for example pick a mid champion when there's already one on the team. Or to kick a player who's trolling.
Here's the catch; People will frequently use this system for the prior, while only the latter is a bannable offense, hence they'll waste their tokens. Duly note that both can happen at the same time - someone can pick another mid to spite the first, which is trolling and thus bannable. If he does it without the intent to spite the first, it's not trolling and thus not bannable.

The goal of a champ selection vote should not be to kick people who pick things the team does not feel comfortable with but rather to remove people who threaten to drag the team down if they're not getting what they want (or for no reason at all), show offensive language or directly start with verbal abuse. If this is "not" the goal, all you achieve is to turn "me mid or feed" into "you support or report". Which is mobbing and thus toxic behaviour. See Riot's stance on 4man premades abusing singular players for reference.

Despite this base assumption being wrong, the system would work. Since you'll run out of tokens very quickly if you report people who aren't showing behaviour that will get them punished via tribunal anyway, which makes the whole thing redundant if you're asking me, the heavy abuse phase would be very short.
Since people who are not legitimately threatening the team would not be punished unless they show otherwise toxic behaviour, it would ultimately not further that goal (which was invalid in the first place), thus wasting tokens.

So it could probably indeed help against legitimate trolls without hurting innocents. Well, there would be casualties - the innocent people who have to wait after being kicked. But if this waiting time is not too long, that could probably be tolerable.

Is it worth the effort, though? I can't even remember the last time I had a legitimate troll on my team. To me, it seems everyone would abuse the feature in the first months of the season and then come complaining how there are too few tokens given out because they can't tell a troll from someone who doesn't let his team bully him into a role just because noone else wants to play it either.

So overall, I think this feature is not needed. You yourself are quite obviously eager to abuse such a system and I think that's the majority vote. Which is also why I'm expecting downvotes for this post. It is unsuited to improve player behaviour, it's merely suited to enforce that last picks pick what nobody else wants to. And even that only for a few weeks until you run out of tokens. And it's suited to give you a few free dodges, which is really not what we currently need.
It's redundant, as it does nothing tribunal doesn't do already, at least from Riot's point of view, as they can already see the lobby chatlogs. I do agree that they should be part of the tribunal cases, though, as there indeed is a lot of champion selection toxicity, although not in the way you think it is.

That all I can say on the matter. The downvote button is the red one on the bottom right.


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Roalr

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Thanks for your answer. I have a few points to raise:

I don't how severely the summoner code is enforced, but the first rule says you should try to pick a champion that serves the team or fills in the spots needed.

It's true that it is redundant; the main reason that pushed me to think of such a system is that when someone doesn't care about playing seriously I'm forced to dodge to not lose ELO. The person who was trolling is already placed in a queue and is probably going to be in a game very soon. So I'm being punished and the troll gets away without being reported. And that's what bothers me the most, that you can't report. If I want to report him I have to play the game and wait for the post-game screen. So I guess a simpler system would be enabling the report option pre-game, but that would also lead to more biased (false accusations) reports

Lastly, I'm not trying to develop a system so I can abuse it.

I guess the problem is that for every system they introduce, they get more abuses and more reports.


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