Why do people say that Atmas's sucks now?

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Pushover

Senior Member

10-02-2012

Problem with Atmas is that it is clearly a lategame item as it is designed to make use of a high health pool, yet it is cheaper and doesn't have as big of an effect as other lategame items, making it fall into the category of midgame-priced items.


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Levgre

Senior Member

10-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaoil View Post
Name 3 champions that don't want GA, Randuins, Aegis or Frozen Heart(if you want to try naming AP's throw in an hourglass).

Atma's is like a gimmick offensive item that gives armor. Trinity force is the best bruiser offensive item.. its extremely slot efficient and cost efficient. Bloodthirster is the best pure AD item for AD scaling champs. Maw is great for resists/shield with high pure AD(for those scalers than don't AA as much). If you really want damage from AA's as a bruiser get an IE... the only downside to it is that it costs a fortune. However, you can probably get better defensive stats out of an IE Trinity build than you can with a atma's trinity build that does anywhere near comparative damage.

Atma's does not give enough armor to be your only armor item.. and it does not give enough crit to be your only crit item. The ONLY thing it gives a decent amount of is AD.

I guess you could maybe argue for getting it against a team with no AP damage...? Beyond that i just don't get it.
Who doesn't want Aegis? Usually everyone but the support, because that is a core item on support. Yes, Aegis is one of the best items in the game, and if one wasn't on your team you'd want it over TONS of items, not just Atma's.

Who doesn't want Frozen Heart? Anyone but the tank if the tank builds FH, and any champion that benefits much more from extra auto attack damage than from cooldown and mana(tons of those). Even if you say they should forgo Atmas, for MANY champs in many situations Frozen Heart is not a good option.

A bruiser that focuses too heavily on defense is effectively neutered, bruisers are fighters, they are damage dealers, that is their purpose. Most of them have skills that scale with AD. As players get higher in skill you see them go heavier in damage on many bruisers, such as Lee Sin and Jarvan builds which do not have a 'ton' of defense.

Trinity is bad on many champions, while it is core on many others. However Atmas and Trinity do have strong synergy. Trinity doesn't disqualify Atmas.

Bloodthirster has many cons on it that makes it unnattractive on many champs. Olaf, Xin, Jarvan, and more would not want it as it puts them way too much into offense, lifesteal is not strong in shorter fights, and building the stacks up alongside your AD carry can be flat out unfeasible.

Maw is actually a pretty bad item on many champs, although it has obvious synergy in a health-based bruiser build and can fit well alongside atmas.

And just... lol at saying you get better defensive stats out of an IE and Trinity build. Do you realize those are the two MOST EXPENSIVE items in the game? Good luck having ANY defense mid to late game if you are working towards 7900 gold of offense.

Atmas is relatively cheap at 2355, while still scaling well into late game.

You are unranked, I am not surprised you do not really know how bruiser builds ACTUALLY work.

Randuin's is also often too defensive centric for many bruisers, although it can fit alongside Atmas. I think GA is actually very overrated on some tanky bruisers, as you take a decent sized hit to your damage/durability while once you revive you actually have very little staying power. It is better on Riven or Irelia than say on Olaf or tanky Jax. However once it gets to super late game everyone would want it, but I would not want it as a part of many 5 item builds.


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Ippiki Okami

Senior Member

10-02-2012

The item has little to no use outside of Blind pick, where 2 teams might face off with completely ridiculous team compositions, and GP might be the beefiest toon you have.

Even then, complete build BT is better.


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Noric

Senior Member

10-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levgre View Post
Who doesn't want Aegis? Usually everyone but the support, because that is a core item on support. Yes, Aegis is one of the best items in the game, and if one wasn't on your team you'd want it over TONS of items, not just Atma's.

Who doesn't want Frozen Heart? Anyone but the tank if the tank builds FH, and any champion that benefits much more from extra auto attack damage than from cooldown and mana(tons of those). Even if you say they should forgo Atmas, for MANY champs in many situations Frozen Heart is not a good option.

A bruiser that focuses too heavily on defense is effectively neutered, bruisers are fighters, they are damage dealers, that is their purpose. Most of them have skills that scale with AD. As players get higher in skill you see them go heavier in damage on many bruisers, such as Lee Sin and Jarvan builds which do not have a 'ton' of defense.

Trinity is bad on many champions, while it is core on many others. However Atmas and Trinity do have strong synergy. Trinity doesn't disqualify Atmas.

Bloodthirster has many cons on it that makes it unnattractive on many champs. Olaf, Xin, Jarvan, and more would not want it as it puts them way too much into offense, lifesteal is not strong in shorter fights, and building the stacks up alongside your AD carry can be flat out unfeasible.

Maw is actually a pretty bad item on many champs, although it has obvious synergy in a health-based bruiser build and can fit well alongside atmas.

And just... lol at saying you get better defensive stats out of an IE and Trinity build. Do you realize those are the two MOST EXPENSIVE items in the game? Good luck having ANY defense mid to late game if you are working towards 7900 gold of offense.

Atmas is relatively cheap at 2355, while still scaling well into late game.

You are unranked, I am not surprised you do not really know how bruiser builds ACTUALLY work.

Randuin's is also often too defensive centric for many bruisers, although it can fit alongside Atmas. I think GA is actually very overrated on some tanky bruisers, as you take a decent sized hit to your damage/durability while once you revive you actually have very little staying power. It is better on Riven or Irelia than say on Olaf or tanky Jax. However once it gets to super late game everyone would want it, but I would not want it as a part of many 5 item builds.
Ok long reply.

Aegis - If you ever had a clue you would notice that top elo junglers grab Aegis nonstop and that in tournament games double aegis is not uncommon(still good for both people and the aura stays up if one dies).

Frozen heart - you gave me no actual examples. I think the best example would probably be someone like Riven who cant use mana, and has a better armor alternative(oh and someone who gets free defense out of AD). However, if you think bruiser's can't use frozen heart please tell me why Westrice has gone with it several times in tournament play on Darius. It may not be an end-all item for bruiser's but chances are you will get damage(bruisers AD scale) and utility from cdr on almost every bruiser.

Trinity Atma's early game leaves you with minimal hp, no mr and over 6000 gold in costs WITHOUT boots. Before the nerf.. i would say they were a good combo.. but that was just because phage-atmas into other items was quite strong.

Randuins Atmas is still an awkward combo (where are you getting AS, MR, TONNNNES of hp for atmas, arpen, or other AD)

Bloodthirster is hardly an end all item... but any champion with notable offense that needs to focus defense is not going to gain from an atma's rush. (Xin just got nerfed with crit btw... so hes slightly worse than he was before as an atma's champ). J4 might be able to pull off an atma's because of his built in armor(making it ACTUALLY space efficient on him. Olaf i can't imagine wanting to put 2 item slots into armor.

GA IS for bruiserish assassins (Riven/Irelia/Lee sin/rengar).. those people that don't want to put more item slots into defenses... it fills that gap.

Atma's is cheap at 2355 but its a piss poor 1st big item and leaves your champion very polarized in stats as a second item. You are still trading some form of utility for AD and crit endgame.. which often matters less than utility in a teamfight(if you aren't an AD).

As for your snipe about my ranking.. i have <20 ranked games under my belt(long term player that just started ranked when s2 prizes annouced and i don't have time to marathon games) so it is hard to assume that my rating is my "final" one(for all we know i could deserve to be 300 elo) but i find it kind of funny if someone within 300 elo of an "unranked" thinks they are ungodly superior. Even if you deserve those few hundred elo points.. it doesn't mean that a player that is more mechanically skilled can't have misconceptions about items/champions. You might notice that sometimes extremely high elo players are clueless about a lot of things.. that doesn't make them worse at playing what they know.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

10-02-2012

It's not purchased anymore because crit is not a desired stat on many bruisers.
While a few took advantage of it, most people purchased it because it gave you armor and AD, a combination not found on any other item.
I strongly believe that if you removed the agility cloak from it's recipe and it built out of pickaxe + chain vest Atma's would return as a really solid bruiser item.


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AlphariusRising

Member

10-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janoa View Post
The stats of atma's aren't increased from the items that made it, so you're paying 825 gold purely for the passive.

You get 45 ad if you have 3k health.

What bruiser wants that?
Mundo.


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Levgre

Senior Member

10-02-2012

I point out your unranked because you really have NO experience in medium to high level play, and from that I see you making many statements which exhibit poor knowledge.

Sometimes junglers go Aegis, but not on many bruisers. Junglers are also in the 'low gold' bracket alongside support, so using their gold to help the team (usually with aegis/shurelias) makes sense. If you build Aegis to double up the aura that is usually a very bad item choice for a bruiser.

I never ONCE said bruisers can't use frozen heart, show me where I did. fact remains it is often a bad choice because of any of the following:
A. it makes your damage output insufficient
B. The tank has it
C. The mana/cooldown stats are not that effective on you

Darius is an anomily because he can build nearly full tank and still have high damage. He is one of the bruisers where Frozen Heart is a better choice. Here are the list of all the bruisers where frozen heart is sometimes or even almost always bad

Darius (sometimes)
Garen ( basically Never)
Hecarim (sometimes)
Irelia (rarely)
Jarvan (rarely)
Jax (almost never)
Jayce
Lee Sin
Nocturne
Olaf (sometimes, depends on team comp)
Pantheon
Renekton
Rengar
Riven
Shyvana
Trundle (sometimes)
Volibear
Wukong
Xin Zhao

Btw that is most of them.

Olaf is one of my best champs, and considering his diving playstyle and ability, going 2 armor items is 100% a STRONG and viable option. Olaf is along the lines of Darius in that he can go highly tanky and still be a monster.

Who said you go Atmas first? Um lol no one ever indicated such. You usually buy it mid game, after you have more health, obviously. So i'll just dismiss the whole 'polarizing first item' argument as 100% irrelevant.

Randuin's/Atmas is not awkward at , as HP builds synergize with Atmas. You definitely would not want to build the two in succession.

Here is an example build with the two
Atmas
Randuins
Mercury's Treads
Frozen mallet
Maw
Flex Item

Crit is still EXTREMELY synergistic with Xin as almost his whole kit revolves around auto attacking. Ghostblade is very good on Xin when you more in carry mode.


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Nishaven90

Senior Member

10-02-2012

It is still good on crit based characters such as Garen, Xin Zhao and Jayce.


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OhYouFancy

Senior Member

10-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreJBringer View Post
I miss Atmas being 8% of max health
wut


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Noric

Senior Member

10-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levgre View Post
I point out your unranked because you really have NO experience in medium to high level play, and from that I see you making many statements which exhibit poor knowledge.

Sometimes junglers go Aegis, but that is not on many bruisers. Junglers are also in the 'low gold' bracket alongside support, so using their gold to help the team (usually with aegis/shurelias) makes sense. If you build Aegis to double up the aura that is a very bad item choice for a bruiser.

I never ONCE said bruisers can't use frozen heart, show me where I did. fact remains it is often a bad choice because of any of the following:
A. it makes your damage output insufficient
B. The tank has it
C. The mana/cooldown stats are not effective on you

Darius is an anomily because he can build nearly full tank and still have high damage. He is one of the bruisers where Frozen Heart is a better choice. Here are the list of all the bruisers where frozen heart is often or even always bad

Darius (sometimes)
Garen ( basically Never)
Hecarim (sometimes)
Irelia (rarely)
Jarvan (rarely)
Jax (almost never)
Jayce
Lee Sin
Nocturne
Olaf (sometimes, depends on team comp)
Pantheon
Renekton
Rengar
Riven
Shyvana
Trundle (sometimes)
Volibear
Wukong
Xin Zhao

Btw that is most of them.

Olaf is one of my best champs, and considering his diving playstyle and ability, going 2 armor items is 100% a STRONG and viable option. Olaf is along the lines of Darius in that he can go highly tanky and still be a monster.

Who said you go Atmas first? Um lol no one ever indicated such. You usually buy it mid game, after you have more health, obviously. So i'll just dismiss the whole 'polarizing first item' argument as 100% irrelevant.
Few things:

1. You actually just called Frozen heart bad on hecarim? Please tell me you top lane 90% of the time.


Most of your valid examples of champs that Frozen heart are bad on fall into the GA realm (Wukong, Jayce, Irelia, Jax(honestly he can itemize tons of ways), Riven, Rengar, Renekton, Lee Sin)

Please tell me that atmas crit chance is n.1 on pantheon.

I would consider Garen, Mundo (maybe jax.. again itemizes as he pleases) maybe olaf and Jarvan as potentially decent Atma's buyers.

You mentioned Atma's as having early strength... so i figured it would be in your 1st two major items... if its not then your statement had absolutely no value.

As for me having no exposure to high level play.. you have absolutely none either so I am humored. Oh and congrats on the 49% win rate on one of your best champions.