Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Okabe1 048596

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehPumpkin View Post
I'm -really- sorry you feel this way. I personally am an oldshcool player from beta days(King Rammus, Judgement Kayle, etc) and I'm leaning more and more to just waving a hand at the money I've invested and the enjoyment I used to have in this game since my #1 favorite role has been reduced to the same area as a support(Which are a whole nother subject about the massive nerfs on them making them wardbots/ccbots).

I mean what kind of game gives you a camp of jungle monsters and makes 3/4ths of them give 5gold? It feels excessively cruel considering all of the other popular MOBA games still have a very fun and entertaining jungle that is more emphasized on pushers/killers/-some- supportish types.

Jungle used to be amazingly fun and felt worthwhile. Now it's boring, I'm 100% sure boredom is not something Riot intends nor did they intend to push out several champions that were infact DESIGNED to jungle but are now reduced to top lane or no lane. And of the junglers that still are played they are no longer the fun killers or lane pushers with map control.. but now these tanky "I'm a meat shield hurr hurr derp" excuses of junglers.

When you use the term "Jungler" you should immediately think of a hunter, a stalker, someone who knows the woods and hunts their food. Not some giant ogre that just runs around going "I grab you, but I no hurt you.. i put you over here for my friends to eat you".
I've been playing for quite a while as well. Not beta, but still over two and a half years.

These are some great points. I don't personally analyze these things to compare whether something is enjoyable, only whether it is efficient or not.

That being said, I don't fully get where you're coming from. Are you saying the champion pool used for jungling consists of a bunch of boring champs? or mostly champs that aren't damage dealers? because i'm looking at the list of champions right now and i see a few damage dealers and/or fun champs out of all of the junglers i'm used to seeing over the past month(s)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bittlez

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LZ06 View Post
I've been playing for quite a while as well. Not beta, but still over two and a half years.

These are some great points. I don't personally analyze these things to compare whether something is enjoyable, only whether it is efficient or not.

That being said, I don't fully get where you're coming from. Are you saying the champion pool used for jungling consists of a bunch of boring champs? or mostly champs that aren't damage dealers? because i'm looking at the list of champions right now and i see a few damage dealers and/or fun champs out of all of the junglers i'm used to seeing over the past month(s)
More so relevant to the topic. They feel like supports which as you may or may not have noticed are in a very very bad place right now as ccbots/wardbots. It's basicly when you join a game you're viewed as this guy that will give everyone a kill and save them from their own shortcomings. However, as you may remember as well, it used to be more that when the jungler came, you knew havoc was about to be wrecked.

It's that fear factor I guess. The fun of the hunt(Only fun when they run - ww). It's not quite that I can point my finger at the meta because the meta for junglers never really changed until several months after the rework when players realized that the early game income that damage dealers needed was not there.

If memory serves me right it started more with Maokai becomming a FoTM. His ganks were there, he wasn't item reliant and therefore could dismiss farming up those 4gold wraiths(big one having been stolen most of the time) as his gp10's would scale him as much as he needed with lane farm here and there from holding those lanes. And while I do not deny that all these points are critical to a jungler, I protest that it has also forced damage dealers into a whole new role or no role at all.

I still feel it with sustain junglers such as Nasus and Warwick.. If I find a low hp jungler in the river or at their wolves that they run immediately due to the HP difference.. At the same time I know that if a Malphite, Skarner, Nunu, or Maokai turned on me that I would quite possibly get outkited or outdamaged due to shortage of income. The income itself is not the issue as you can see these ccbots thrive in it, it's more the high price of AD items that junglers are trying to get to. We are hindered without items and therefore the oracles/wards we must invest in are preventing from achieving the items we need to be effective early enough to make a difference whereas Support/CCbot junglers only need levels and a few tanky items as they go. Which works out really well.

Core items for support jungler: Boots, Philo, HoG.
Core items for Damage jungler: Boots, Wriggles, x item.(Wits end, Brutalizer, Zeal, BF sword).

The cost difference is substantial enough that jungling as a "hunter" type becomes extreamly tasking. AA champs that are meant for the jungle such as warwick are extreamly hindered just on the fact that they need AD/AS items to be effective. Whereas supports only need the skill levels. This is leaving a gigantic difference in the two junglers before you even consider wards/oracles. If you do add in oracle/ward costs the difference is even greater.

The only idea I can come across to fix this situation is A) lower the cost of some jungler-specific AD/AS items or B) increase the gold income of the jungle.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PressF1

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Udyr -- Usually build very tanky, good initiator with fast MS and on hit stun if he catches anyone
Udyr is absolute trash at initiating.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

iainB85

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PressF1 View Post
Udyr is absolute trash at initiating.
Well that's your opinion, I think he's a decent meat shield and if he charges in with a shurelia's the enemy team is forced to blow CC on him or he gets a guaranteed on hit stun on the carry. Either way, not too shabby. Also, not really the main topic of the post...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

iainB85

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntaxs View Post
Wierd, every single jungle game in my match history I ended up with having more gold than anyone else....
Guess those junglers farm bad... It's bs, sorry but it's true.
And Jungler certainly are game deciding as there is always a way to gank a lane, which means she
can snowball.
http://www.lolking.net/search?name=Syntaxs

Level 7 account... if you are talking about newb level master yi games that is a really poor example.

Also, as someone else pointed out, the only way a jungler gets ahead of any laner in farm is if they are either:

a) Terrible at last hitting

b) Forced out of their lane far too often and you took their farm instead

...either way, those cases are obvious exceptions where your lane was doing terrible and not the standard.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Jack of All AIDS

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Am the only one who thinks being a jungle is painfully boring now? Not just un-fun, I mean brain dead button pressing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bittlez

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of All AIDS View Post
Am the only one who thinks being a jungle is painfully boring now? Not just un-fun, I mean brain dead button pressing.
mm.. not really? I mean the farming at the moment feels a little braindead in the sense that it's impossible to die to the jungle camps. Lvl 3 and 5% hp? Np you will still kill the wraiths.

However braindead in the sense of our role as a whole? I can safely say jungling keeps my mind ever more active then the various other roles seeing as how we must be constantly vigilant and prepared to protect our lanes


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Empyrius

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-08-2012

Point of jungle is to spread gold and xp around.

If you have 2 people in lane vs 1 person. The one person should level at a faster rate than the two in lane with them. 2 people will also consistently push the lane more often. Thus setting up a situation where 1 person is higher lvl than the two people and a (good) jungler should be a little behind the solo lanes. In a pushed lane they will be able to come in and get behind the pushed lane and cordinate with the solo to set up kills. This method creates more gold output and xp distribution.

However using 2 supports will enhance lane survivability, putting alot of pressure on the solo. Solo can also be tricked or forced into confrontations, locked out of gold, etc.

Its about an even trade off. Lately i have been seeing people shift trying confusing tactics which arn't used normally. This includes 2 top 1 bot 1 mid 1 jungle, 2 top 1 mid 2 bot. i have even seen a game where it was 3 top 1 mid 1 bot. Some of these strats work, some dont.

If you dont have a jungler it opens it up for counterjungling with no consequences meaning the jungler will start having large xp and gold gains which can be trouble as well.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

iainB85

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikyre View Post
Point of jungle is to spread gold and xp around.

If you have 2 people in lane vs 1 person. The one person should level at a faster rate than the two in lane with them. 2 people will also consistently push the lane more often. Thus setting up a situation where 1 person is higher lvl than the two people and a (good) jungler should be a little behind the solo lanes. In a pushed lane they will be able to come in and get behind the pushed lane and cordinate with the solo to set up kills. This method creates more gold output and xp distribution.

However using 2 supports will enhance lane survivability, putting alot of pressure on the solo. Solo can also be tricked or forced into confrontations, locked out of gold, etc.

Its about an even trade off. Lately i have been seeing people shift trying confusing tactics which arn't used normally. This includes 2 top 1 bot 1 mid 1 jungle, 2 top 1 mid 2 bot. i have even seen a game where it was 3 top 1 mid 1 bot. Some of these strats work, some dont.

If you dont have a jungler it opens it up for counterjungling with no consequences meaning the jungler will start having large xp and gold gains which can be trouble as well.
I've seen the two top strategy once in a while, and the only time I've seen it do well is when the top was terrible and just chain died instead of farming under tower. Putting two top past the ~ 8 minute mark basically means you are giving dragon to the other team for free.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JMoneyFresh

Senior Member

10-09-2012

Another blue ribbon for hecarim