Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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Ballbag69

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Bump because lately I've main jungling and no matter how fast you do it, you're still just going to be behind in exp.


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Albireo

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

Bring the old jungle where only few champs could actually jungle without dying on the 3rd camp.

No, really, for example, the way CLG EU win today with the ubber farmed karthus, was made just because the Maokai jungler give him not only wraiths, but also wolfs, and all blue buffs, including the first one.

Yes, a brusier jungler could never live that way at all, he would just melted in seconds in team fights latter.

But if they made the jungle give more gold and exp in general, then it will be the same, but the laner could not live against to another laner who share camps with the junglers, and would break it harder than now.


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Bittlez

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Awareness bump. Give red response.


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NegaStoat

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

I already upvoted, and am sad I can't upvote the OP again.

Seriously, I'd like to see a Test server experiment where the jungle creeps were increased in difficulty, experience, and gold by 10-20% roughly just to see what would happen. Or something.

Just some experimentation of some kind that would allow champions that rely on gear to succeed to be able to use jungle and the occasional gank to do so. Rather than the reverse (gank all day, and some jungle). Unless you play a tanky "don't need much" jungle pick, which is hella boring.


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Spirit Stones

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSe7eNz View Post
You kidding me? Shyvana's probably THE tankiest out of all those (okay Udyr might usually be tankier, but that's it.). She's also really the only one who can initiate other than Noc.
She does have 2000 base health at level 18


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Bittlez

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Worlds thread spam, bringing back to front for early morning.


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Subdue

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

@ TehPumpkin

Rather than respond to all the garbage you spewed in the last 3 pages, I'm just going to summarize things for you:

1. There are two types of junglers: support junglers (Amumu, Maokai, Nautilus, Alistar...) and counter junglers (Nocturne, Udyr, Shyvana, Dr. Mundo, Nunu)

2. Counter junglers have much faster clear times than support junglers.

3. Counter junglers thus have time to enter the enemy jungle and steal creeps, thus giving them a creep advantage

4. Counter junglers tend to be significantly stronger in 1v1 scenarios, meaning if the two run into each other in the jungle, the counter jungler tends to win out.

5. Counter junglers tend to have better dragon and baron control due to superior clear speeds.

6. Gp10 has the same effect in lane as it does in the jungle: less aggressive laners tend to take it, more aggressive laners tend not to. When you grab something like double doran instead of a GP10, you need to use that double doran to control the lane and gain a CS advantage. In the same way, when you go for Wriggle instead of 2 GP10 Items as a jungler, you need to use that to gain a farm advantage.

7. You've played a jungler maybe once in the 50 ranked games you've played at 1200 Elo. Please don't talk like you understand how things work.

Edit:

Oh, and as a fun fact for you: Wraiths respawn every 50 seconds and give about 80 gold in total. If the extent of your counter jungling is to steal the enemy wraith camp every time it's up, that's more than the gold you'd get from a Gp10 item in the same amount of time. Imagine if you actually counter jungle correctly and take all of his camps.


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FlareBlade

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

bump


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Bittlez

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
@ TehPumpkin

1. There are two types of junglers: support junglers (Amumu, Maokai, Nautilus, Alistar...) and counter junglers (Nocturne, Udyr, Shyvana, Dr. Mundo, Nunu)
There it is again. Defining junglers as if "Support Junglers" don't go out and "Counter Jungle".. tsk tsk

Quote:
2. Counter junglers have much faster clear times than support junglers.
More false information. Nautilus, Amumu, and Maokai can have just as fast as clear times if not faster. Heck Maokai just walks up, sapling/Q and that's a cleared wraith camp.

Quote:
3. Counter junglers thus have time to enter the enemy jungle and steal creeps, thus giving them a creep advantage
There it is again... Misleading information -AND- false categorization of junglers. Oh -and- creep advantage in jungle is != powerful. Why, you might ask with the presented 47g+4+4g+4g = 80g? (It's actually 59g for wraith camp -if- someone didn't just 1shot smite the big wraith, then yay 12g) Because your information is false again.

Quote:
4. Counter junglers tend to be significantly stronger in 1v1 scenarios, meaning if the two run into each other in the jungle, the counter jungler tends to win out.
While true at level 1, level 3 when items slowly begin to become major factors, you're wrong. The "Counter Jungler"(again, wrong categorization) is building into wriggles. The Support jungler, who scales extreamly well with HP/Regen, has a HoG or Philo already and a piece of their next one before the "Counter Jungler"(Aka ITEM RELIANT jungler) can even get a full wriggles out. Sounds legit.

(Let's not get into the fact of how weak the Wriggles player will be at lvl 10 for having **** income, same respawn rates in jungle, same counter jungling power, and yet be behind in gold due to gp10 jungling... haha)

"Significantly stronger" you say... /laugh @ u I say.

Quote:
5. Counter junglers tend to have better dragon and baron control due to superior clear speeds.
Please refer to points above. False information. By the time dragon is even to be contested both junglers are wanting to gank bottom lane. What you're implying is that because A can kill wraiths faster then B, they by default has wards placed at dragon because of it... ????? Idiot.

Quote:
6. Gp10 has the same effect in lane as it does in the jungle: less aggressive laners tend to take it, more aggressive laners tend not to. When you grab something like double doran instead of a GP10, you need to use that double doran to control the lane and gain a CS advantage. In the same way, when you go for Wriggle instead of 2 GP10 Items as a jungler, you need to use that to gain a farm advantage.
You're comparing Gp10 laners vs Gp10 junglers... ??? Real?

Laners have a continuous income of creeps while farming in lane and harassing. Let's take your oh so correct "80g" wraiths which are actually 59g wraiths(Again, assuming easymode instakilling the only wraith worth killing hasn't been done to you by a nunu) and compare them..

59g from a full wraith camp, 4 minions.
vs
Melee Minions

  • 3 spawn in every wave
  • 22 gold during the first wave on Summoner's Rift
  • 29 on Twisted Treeline
  • increases by 1 after the first wave
  • +1 after every 5 minutes game-time passed
Caster Minions

  • 3 spawn in every wave
  • 16 gold on Summoner's Rift
  • 22 on Twisted Treeline
  • +1 after the first wave
  • +1 after every 5 minutes

Sooo... 3 caster +1 melee... 70g. And they can't be /gobbled or /denied by enemy.. Just pushed closer to you.

Or we can do 3 melee + 1 caster.. 82g.. And they can't be denied, only pushed closer to you or taken with a little harass..

Funny about that as well when people say jungling is relatively "safer"... yet 1 minion killed in your jungle eats off 47g at level one leaving you with.. gasp.. 12gold from that camp...

I wish I could kill my siege minions/melee minions to deny you creep gold.. but I can't, can I?

-----In conclusion to this quote response----
How dare you compare them. Get a wriggle when the enemy has 2 gp10's.. Grats, you can clear a 12g wraith camp (probably not, mid takes them) slightly faster on a ***50*** second respawn timer and that's ONLY to be considered if the blue wraith dies with the rest.. god forbid nunu or maokai or amumu ran up and smited it.. because then the ***50*** second respawn timer doesn't mean jack. It's 12gold lvl 1 for 3 little wraiths are you joking? Farming that faster means nothing.. you still have 50 seconds to wait for jack **** income.

I have no idea what you're trying to argue or in what way you're trying to defend the current jungle because nothing you say even stands as True or Accurate.

Stop falsifying information

Quote:
7. You've played a jungler maybe once in the 50 ranked games you've played at 1200 Elo. Please don't talk like you understand how things work.
Good job lolking'ing my alt account. I'm happy you feel like this somehow makes your points(when inaccurate) more valid. hahaha Next you're going to try and go with the "Senior vs Junior Member" thing as if that means a damned thing.

I'll go ahead and throw this back at you: How come mr "I jungle more" or whatever your argument is here.. maybe it's "I'm higher elo".. is saying 4wraiths is 80gold? Somehow 47+4+4+4 = 80, right? And somehow I've never ever ever ever could not have possibly even attempted to jungle constantly in normal to prepare for ranked jungling, could I? I could not possibly have a King Rammus skin either and have jungled him, could I?

If you want to throw things out there like elo as if you have some super astounding comprehension of the game because you're what, 1700 elo? (... isn't that still the 'scrub' bracket, btw? I thought only 2000 elo players knew what they were talking about?) Then all these players who have also posted who might possibly have a 2k+ elo alt are more right then you and therefor your points are invalid.

Logic.

Sounds legit.

Quote:


Nocturne
3 4 42.9% 4.1/game 3.7/game 8.1/game 71.1/game
Quote:


Maokai
125 113 52.5% 3.7/game 4.1/game 11.3/game 51.1/game
Sounds like you know what you're talking about.. ROFL jk, you're an idiot. This means absolutely nothing except proof you play maokai/amumu/alistar in ranked.(nice average creepscore... not)


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Subdue

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehPumpkin View Post
There it is again. Defining junglers as if "Support Junglers" don't go out and "Counter Jungle".. tsk tsk

More false information. Nautilus, Amumu, and Maokai can have just as fast as clear times if not faster. Heck Maokai just walks up, sapling/Q and that's a cleared wraith camp.

There it is again... Misleading information -AND- false categorization of junglers. Oh -and- creep advantage in jungle is != powerful. Why, you might ask with the presented 47g+4+4g+4g = 80g? (It's actually 59g for wraith camp -if- someone didn't just 1shot smite the big wraith, then yay 12g) Because your information is false again.

While true at level 1, level 3 when items slowly begin to become major factors, you're wrong. The "Counter Jungler"(again, wrong categorization) is building into wriggles. The Support jungler, who scales extreamly well with HP/Regen, has a HoG or Philo already and a piece of their next one before the "Counter Jungler"(Aka ITEM RELIANT jungler) can even get a full wriggles out. Sounds legit.

(Let's not get into the fact of how weak the Wriggles player will be at lvl 10 for having **** income, same respawn rates in jungle, same counter jungling power, and yet be behind in gold due to gp10 jungling... haha)

"Significantly stronger" you say... /laugh @ u I say.

Please refer to points above. False information. By the time dragon is even to be contested both junglers are wanting to gank bottom lane. What you're implying is that because A can kill wraiths faster then B, they by default has wards placed at dragon because of it... ????? Idiot.

You're comparing Gp10 laners vs Gp10 junglers... ??? Real?

Laners have a continuous income of creeps while farming in lane and harassing. Let's take your oh so correct "80g" wraiths which are actually 59g wraiths(Again, assuming easymode instakilling the only wraith worth killing hasn't been done to you by a nunu) and compare them..

59g from a full wraith camp, 4 minions.
vs
Melee Minions

  • 3 spawn in every wave
  • 22 gold during the first wave on Summoner's Rift
  • 29 on Twisted Treeline
  • increases by 1 after the first wave
  • +1 after every 5 minutes game-time passed
Caster Minions

  • 3 spawn in every wave
  • 16 gold on Summoner's Rift
  • 22 on Twisted Treeline
  • +1 after the first wave
  • +1 after every 5 minutes

Sooo... 3 caster +1 melee... 70g. And they can't be /gobbled or /denied by enemy.. Just pushed closer to you.

Or we can do 3 melee + 1 caster.. 82g.. And they can't be denied, only pushed closer to you or taken with a little harass..

Funny about that as well when people say jungling is relatively "safer"... yet 1 minion killed in your jungle eats off 47g at level one leaving you with.. gasp.. 12gold from that camp...

I wish I could kill my siege minions/melee minions to deny you creep gold.. but I can't, can I?

-----In conclusion to this quote response----
How dare you compare them. Get a wriggle when the enemy has 2 gp10's.. Grats, you can clear a 12g wraith camp (probably not, mid takes them) slightly faster on a ***50*** second respawn timer and that's ONLY to be considered if the blue wraith dies with the rest.. god forbid nunu or maokai or amumu ran up and smited it.. because then the ***50*** second respawn timer doesn't mean jack. It's 12gold lvl 1 for 3 little wraiths are you joking? Farming that faster means nothing.. you still have 50 seconds to wait for jack **** income.

I have no idea what you're trying to argue or in what way you're trying to defend the current jungle because nothing you say even stands as True or Accurate.

Stop falsifying information

Good job lolking'ing my alt account. I'm happy you feel like this somehow makes your points(when inaccurate) more valid. hahaha Next you're going to try and go with the "Senior vs Junior Member" thing as if that means a damned thing.

I'll go ahead and throw this back at you: How come mr "I jungle more" or whatever your argument is here.. maybe it's "I'm higher elo".. is saying 4wraiths is 80gold? Somehow 47+4+4+4 = 80, right? And somehow I've never ever ever ever could not have possibly even attempted to jungle constantly in normal to prepare for ranked jungling, could I? I could not possibly have a King Rammus skin either and have jungled him, could I?

If you want to throw things out there like elo as if you have some super astounding comprehension of the game because you're what, 1700 elo? (... isn't that still the 'scrub' bracket, btw? I thought only 2000 elo players knew what they were talking about?) Then all these players who have also posted who might possibly have a 2k+ elo alt are more right then you and therefor your points are invalid.

Logic.

Sounds legit.

Sounds like you know what you're talking about.. ROFL jk, you're an idiot. This means absolutely nothing except proof you play maokai/amumu/alistar in ranked.(nice average creepscore... not)
Your entire argument rests on support junglers clearing as fast as non-support junglers. My challenge to you is this: Go into a custom game as Maokai and farm both sides of the jungle for 10 minutes. Then do the same the same thing with Shyvana. Use the standard builds for both. Post the lolreplay for both.