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Will someone care to explain this weird metagame?

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Selcopa

Senior Member

09-28-2012

Quote:
BetaGod:
Awesome explanation there, mate. I still have a couple of questions, tho:

1- Who is supposed to ward? (In DoTA it was a support only job, but in League i see both bruiser and AP dmg dealer buying wards every now and then).

2- Is there a guide for right ward placement? Or i should just thrust my instincts?

3- As a bruiser (thank GOD you don't use the "tank" term either, i hate it so bad...), I should start the fight? And inmediatly after it, focus on the enemy AD carry? I guess this actually depends on the type of champion and general lineup, so feel free to avoid this question!

4- How about runes? When should i start filling some pages? I have about 4-5 tier 3 marks built for a Nocturne AD build right now. I am summoner level 21 or so.

5- When does Dragon spawn? And how much minutes do i have to wait to kill him once again? 190 gold for the entire team seems pretty good if a team manages to get him every time he spawns.

Uhmm i think this is quite all for now. Thanks again for your consideration!


1: everylane is responsible for its own warding, there are some common choke points for warding so you should be able to trust your instincts, but solomid.net has a good reference guide.
Support generally buys the wards for bot lane, and is usually responsible for keeping usually at least 2 wards up nearly all times(one for dragon, one at tribush) and occassionally a 3rd ward) jungle usually assists in warding wherever there's need, whether soomeones ward expires or they need to ward jungle entrances.

#3 initiation is rarely done by brusiers, it does happen though, what you are asking is a very complicated answer based on a lot of factors, so you will have to learn from experience, as a general rule you want to save your combos for the enemy carry, if they overextend and you can catch them, that's great, but typically you'll need a different role to lane a snare or stun on their carry so you have time to close the gap and get them.

#4 runes are great for customizing to a special build, it isn't necessary to have tons of different runes but it does help, there are qute a few high elo players that got to 2k+ with 2 pages. Your 2 basic pages should look like this
Page 1
Attack damage quints
Attack damage marks
Armor seals
Magic resistance glyphs
Page 2
movement speed quints
Magic penetration marks
Armor seals(or mana regen)
Magic resistance glyphs

Many players do just fine with those 2 pages, over time you can work on your rune pages and add more specialized ones, but start with that

#5 I forget when dragon spawns(its like at 2 minutes), I think maybe the earliest you can kill dragon is around 6 minutes, but that's really fast, typically a rush dragon team can do it around the 8minute mark, and standard teams go for it around 12 minutes.
Spawn timers are as following
Blue/red buff:5 minutes
Dragon:6 minutes
Baron:7 minutes


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BetaGod

Senior Member

09-28-2012

Lots of usefull info! Thanks!


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Sir Duckington

Junior Member

09-28-2012

I'm going to explain each lane comp simply and efficiently. Not sure if somebody else has gotten to it before me but repetition isn't necessarily bad :P

Top Lane - Your top lane is not normally a tank. Your top lane a is an ad bruiser. It is this way because when an ad bruiser gets fed on minion farm they become quite tanky and gain the ability to hunt down and kill the squishies in a team fight.

Mid Lane - AP carry. An ap carry supplies the "oomph" to your fights. These tend to be very versatile and have two different types. They are either a ap mage who stays in the back dealing damage to everyone in a fight (Mids tend to be aoe oriented if mages) or ap assassin who has the job of hunting down and killing everything they can in a fight while being pretty agile. These are in mid so that they can get to any fight or gank any lane faster than anyone.

Bottom Lane - AD carry. You have an ad carry get supported so that they get as much farm as possible in peace. The support can also glean assists from their ad carry helping them to get gp10's (Gold per 10 seconds).

Jungle - These tend to be tanks. They can get minion farm and help lanes get kills. This makes them very dangerous and their cc really helps ganks.

Hope I helped ^_^


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GildedPaintrain

Junior Member

09-28-2012

Ok. Basically it is very hard compare LoL with DotA because everything about them is almost different. Here's a list of the things i believe to be at the core of your issue.

1. The picks and bans phase in DotA is more geared towards team comps and how well a player can play his or her champ where as in League there are certain champs that are just above the competition so neither team wants to see them played. Have you ever noticed how in DotA you get to ban like 2 champs (i believe) and then make 2 pick and then 2 more bans ect.? (i'm assuming that being a veteran of the game yourself you have a pretty clear understanding as to why this is) This is used to make sure you don't see certain "heroes" again or to disrupt the enemy teams potential to play a deadly combination you've seen in the game before or just don't want to play against because it's one of your opponent's best heroes(respect bans). In League, you're only allowed to ban 3 champions so they usually tend to be "champs" that can completely turn a team fight around by clicking "R" (morgana, twisted fate, malphite, shen, ect.) because they are just too strong. You can blame champion balance on Riot.

2. The "metagame" is just a term to describe the best way to play a champ. For example, in DotA when your team chooses to have a Furion 'jungle', you have to compensate by either having someone beefy at top who can hold out vs. 2 enemy champs for a bit or having a strong range hero that can stay alive and still farm/deny creeps(Windrunner) but in LoL this is much more beneficial because there is a jungler on the team 99% of the time because of smite and the ability to accumulate more gold and gain more experience. Also unlike in DotA, you can choose not only jungle items but also jungle masteries which help speed up the process. Also having a jungler means that when mid, top or bottom is losing their lane a simple gank can bounce them right back which alleviates a lot of pressure on middle to gank top or bottom. So this leaves you with 1 lane where there can only be 1 champion and it just happens to be top lane because it the furthest away from dragon which makes it a lane you can afford to lose more than bottom. Also the map is a lot smaller in LoL than in DotA so if you have a really good jungler you can win any lane and still take your jungle creeps. Junglers also help AP carries who usually go mid to get their blue buff.

3. The last and third core difference is gold gain/loss upon kills/deaths and the ability to deny creeps and teleport scrolls, side shops, & couriers. In my opinion this is what really separates LoL from DotA or any other game like it. In LoL when you die there is no loss of gold. Shutting down someone in League is very different from shutting down someone in DotA because in LoL all you've really done is gained a ton of gold for killing the player who was on a killing spree and you really didn't "damage" them in any way besides taking them out of a potential team fight. In DotA when you killed someone on a spree you actually stole that gold from them, further delaying their late game build. This is the reason team fights start much sooner in DotA than they do in League because once the snowball starts it usually doesn't stop .Have you noticed how easier it is to roam in DotA than it is in League? It's because there is no Dragon to worry about and teleport scrolls make it super easy to get back into your lane without losing your tower. Then there are the "side shops" & "couriers" which means you can stay in any lane a lot longer without having to go back to base at all in some cases. None of this is possible in League unless you take the "teleport" summoner spell which still has a longer cd than the 60 seconds of the teleport scroll even with the mastery CDR and still there are no couriers and i think that's why the map in LoL is smaller to compensate for this. A good DotA player can deny so many creeps that sometimes they will starve the enemy from building the necessary items to stay alive in team fights or to even stay in lane so it would seem more beneficial to play a ranged champ in a solo lane since they can deny creeps and harass if the enemy tries to get too close but since there is no creep denying in League top champs are usually those who have sustainability.

Anyways, in summary there are just too many different factors in League to compare it to DotA. One game has been out much longer than the other so it isn't fair. You can argue that there isn't a "metagame" since there are always new teams who come out with strategies that even the top players aren't ready for. This is just the game has shaped out to be so far.. for all we know tomorrow having two junglers might become the new meta.


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ncrwhale

Recruiter

09-30-2012

Check out lolking.net. It has lots of interesting statistics. In terms of ward placement, I think xpecial has a guide out there.. or just google lol ward placement.

Like others have suggested, watch high level play. Where you're at right now, you'll be out of quickly. My first 2 pages were identical except the reds. One for armor pen, one for magic pen. Don't worry too much about runes, and don't buy a bunch because of a crappy mobafire guide


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Zanatos Fox

Junior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Agatio:
Listen to yourself. (http://xkcd.com/481/)

Anyways, @OP, Meta is decided(IIRC) by the bunches of people that watch the pros use new and unusual tactics and strategies that would make Ender proud, and are all like "Oh, hey, that's cool, let's try that." Soon, x people are all trying the same tactic, and faceroll, and it spreads.


Nice Ender reference, Sir! ;-)


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RTBardic

Member

10-10-2012

Two areas that there isn't really an equivalent between League and DotA that you might find useful:

1. As you've read by now, the support role in League generally does not kill minions for income. Instead, they purchase items that increase the natural gold generation. Having two of them (usually Philosopher's Stone and Heart of Gold, though others exist) increases your gold generation by quite a bit -- it's almost the difference between DotA's "Easy Mode" generation and the normal mode. Occasionally you'll see top and jungle grab a Heart of Gold for this reason, if things are going well and they don't need more practical items early on.

2. The main reason for a stagnant lane configuration of 1-1-2 + jungle (as opposed to the "traditional" DotA 2-1-2 or the trilane that you'll observe in competitive DotA play) is that one of the main jobs of the jungle player is to control the red and blue buffs that are acquired from the tougher creeps in the jungle. The bonuses they convey are immense, especially early game:

--Blue buff gives 25 flat mana regen per second, and 0.5% of their max mana is restored each second. Additionally, blue buff gives 20% cooldown reduction.

This is why blue buff is usually given to the AP mid player as soon as possible, as it is effectively infinite mana, which allows for near-infinite spell spamming. This allows for whoever has it to determine the flow of the mid lane matchup.

Unrelated aside: In DotA it is fairly common for an early spell combo to take 1/2 -- 3/4 of a mana bar (even more in the case of Pebbles, as I'm sure you well know). In League, the cost is not usually that high -- feel free to cast a little more often...especially if you get blue!

--Red buff gives a slow on-hit effect, much like DotA's Frostwolf Skull...except that it is obtainable at level 1! It also adds some true damage over time, mostly useful for jungling. The slow is the big part of this buff; it's 8/16/24% for melee, 5/10/15% for ranged heroes.

These buffs have to be protected, especially at high level play. This is why there is almost always a jungle role in League. DotA's jungle conveys no such benefit, and a dedicated jungler there is much rarer as a result (though, of course, they do exist -- Enigma comes to mind).


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Akira Kid41

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Don't forget that ap carries go mid also because it is the safest lane; in that it spans the shortest length between towers, effectively cutting down any gank durations. Those ap carries are incredibly squishy.


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HeroesNeverQuit

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Something about the dragons and jungling.

Once you start hitting the competitive scene your jungler should be posting timers on the dragon baron blue and red buffs.

In the form of Drake: 9:00
BB: 7:00

Just stuff like that so that you will know exactly when it respawns although any one can do that. And in any event when you kill it the little icon on the minimap in the bottom left hand corner will disappear until it respawns. When it respawns if the enemy team kills it then that icon will stay there until someone goes and looks into its "cave".

As far as learning how to jungle goes. Its one of the most complicated roles. You pretty much do every laners job + spawn timers + counter jungle. So you need to ward buffs (yours and theres if you want), baron, drake, and in general try to steal enemy jungle creeps. Then you also need to "gank" extended lanes. If you leave a lane over extended for to long that means that your team mate in that lane is losing gold as he can not last hit minions as well under turret.

Ap's IMO go mid for 3 reasons. Easy for them to get to top and bot for that huge burst damage for a possible easy gank. They are close to dragon and baron. Also close to blue. They generally have a stun. Now why that matters is because if a jungler comes to gank they can easily stun and run. The distance between the enemy turrets and your turret is alot smaller as well so you have to walk a shorter distance to be safe.


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Topsy Crets

Senior Member

10-11-2012

If you ever want to try a newer type of meta. There is one that is not new nore old and it's not used much because people are afraid to try new things. Called a "Kill Lane" where you take 2 champions that deal massive damage early to just constantly keep a lane at bay which let's your other lanes be free of harass from the jungler. Champions which are good for this would be either an AD Ranged that has high early burst with a bruiser with good speed or jumps or 2 high nuking assassins. Example: Ezreal/Lee Sin or Graves/Rengar Rengar/Kha'Zix Lee Sin/Xin Zhao. There's more Comps that can be used with supports. A Jumping champion like Rengar or Lee Sin paired with Karma can be devastating because of Karmas Shield Damage and the jumping champs early burst can literally kill someone before they can react defensively.