Will someone care to explain this weird metagame?

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Phenomenaut

Senior Member

09-26-2012

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Originally Posted by BetaGod View Post
I am an ex DoTA player. I played in several leagues and groups, included HSL, Argentina ELITE, Prodota.ru, PDGG and Imperium League. I am also a sort of theory lover. That beign said, i must confess i really don't understand the current LOL metagame. I will also like to explain that i am NOT lvl 30, so i don't play competitive games yet. At least not ranked ones...

What the **** is a tank and why would you make him solo top? In DoTA, you would not make a melee hero solo a lane (Obvious disadventage against ranged dudes) unless he/she is built in some really efficient lane controlling skills, like low mp/cd harrash, orb walkers or scouting (and vision) *****ies.
A tank is a champion that builds defensive items over damage items & has some form of initiation. They use their abilities to allow their team to focus high priority targets, or prevent the opponent from doing the same. However, they tend to lack one one one kill potential and are quite farm dependant. They don't force a team to focus them, they render the squishy damage dealers unable to attack anyone else simply locking them up and being the first one into the fight. If the squishy pushes forward they get locked down in range of their opponents and are blown up.
A soak is a champion that is really hard to kill but lacks the ability to initiate. They generally have similar scaling to a tank, but lack the ability to initiate, making up for it by being better duelists.
A bruiser is a damage dealer who builds both damage and defensive items. They are generally the best duelists, but scale fairly poorly into the endgame. While robust, they tend to lack innate defensive abilities, or require significant damage items to succeed. They will probably have some form of initiation via a gapcloser or CC, but can be focused down quickly when not fed, even if they tend to win 1v1s. Thus their goal is generally either to dive in right behind the tank and make a beeline for the enemy carry.

The reason these champions go top is that they tend to have 2 things that ranged champions generally lack; innate sustain and the ability to survive early ganks by using CC/gapclosers. As well, they are better at farming under tower, and tend to be less farm dependent than most ranged champions. Because top lane is so susceptible to early ganks from the jungler, top champions need to be able to survive ganks(through better base stats, innate tankiness, CC, and escapes), and then recover from them(through sustain).

Ranged champions generally lack tankiness, cc, and sustain. when they do have some of those traits(Kennen, Jayce, Nidalee) in addition to an escape they get picked top in some situations.

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Tank? Seriously? "Tank" role is the guy who takes all te damage, right? Well... Who the **** will focus all his attacks on the 8.5k HP Darius? "Tanks" have to MAKE enemies attack them, to distract their attentions from important team fight targets (Like carries). I know nobody really likes to compare, but in DoTA, there was only one hero using a skill that allowed him to get focused. The rest of the "tanks" would have to take Radiance (Sunfire like item, that deals ridicously ammounts of damage to enemies nearby. Really usefull if rushed) or another "Leave me alive and i will **** everything up" ability. Swain's ultimate comes to my mind.
Right, a tank forces enemy carries to attack him by preventing him from reaching other targets due to his initiation and CC.
A bruiser or soak forces enemy carries to attack them because if they don't the bruiser or soak will just kill them.

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Bare in mind that we actually replaced the "Tank" role with the "Initiator" role. One guy would jump in, grab the enemy carry or something, and take huge ammounts of damage while having BKB active (Black King Bar, makes you magic invulnerable for like 6 seconds). If the initiator dies, it is irrelevant. He/she distracted, disrupted or displaced the entire enemy team, focusing his/her ****ing up skills on the carry.
The thing you'll find in LoL is that a tank is not necessary. The champion type exists, but if you have some form of initiation from another role (Ashe, Orianna, Morgana, etc.) you can do without them. The general gist of a teamcomp is that you have a support, a mage, an AD carry, and two bruisers/tanks. There are variations, but that's the standard. Generally speaking the AD and the mage will be heavily damage focused, and the support will be too starved for gold to reliably initiate(Alistar) or will simply be incapable due to their design(Soraka). This leaves the initiation to the bruisers/tanks/soaks. If your bruiser/soak lacks a gapcloser(Udyr/Mundo) you need a tank. If your bruiser is tankier and has CC + gap closer you can go double bruiser instead(Irelia and Jax being prime examples).

The reason you are hearing about tanks all the time is you are still sub 30. Everyone wants to play a damager, meaning someone gets stuck having to do all the CC, meaning you need a tank.


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Okay, so, carries. What the ****? I understand the AD concept, since most of DoTA's carries were right-click auto attack mosnters if fed, or after core items. Carries would not shine until min 40 or so, if not.
AD Carries are overpowered right now, simple as that. Teams are devolving into protect the carry comps in high level games, sadly. They have the best lategame without really sacrificing anything given how safe bot lane is, and this is a much discussed problem.

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Ap carry? Why would two people have the most important job in the game? There is a champion dying, who gets the kill? AD or AP carry? Same with creeps, though this can be easily avoided by setting up lanes propperly. AP carry should farm farm and farm or focus more on ganking? If he ganks instead of staying in lane killing creeps, he stops beign a traditional carry... Who will win you the game? AP or AD carry?
The term carry in LoL, when used as a noun, just means primary damage dealer. Mages are generally doing the most damage through the midgame, while Ranged DPSes do the same in the lategame. Thus AP Carry for Mages. In arranged games your AD will want the kills, with a couple of exceptions(Karthus and Ryze scale really well for example). However in solo queue most games end in the mid game, where Mages still outdo AD champions, so getting your AP fed and winning before cooldowns start limiting their kill potential is very common.

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Oh, well... Jungling is way more easy in LOL, but i really don't get how to do it yet, i may need to watch more competitive replays. I will leave this point untouched, then!

Support, just one? WHY?! Supports were ultra important back in the DoTA days... You wouldn't use only one of them and they were ALWAYS top pick/bans, even first picksmost of the times. Trilane formation with two agressive supports and a late game physichal dps guy will always render victories if played correctly. What about roamer supports? I understand that the LOL's jungler takes much of this responsability, but it is kinda different, still. You guys never do 2-1-2 formations using Tank&Suport top, AP mid, Carry&Support bot? Why is inefficient?
The necessity of a jungler and the fact that jungle champions are generally more desirable in the late game precludes 2-1-2 and trilanes. There are several reasons for this.
  • Buffs need to be fought instead of just picked up.
  • Supports in LoL generally have poor scaling, so extra ones are undesirable.
  • Carries scale less than DotA carries, but are more self reliant, meaning they don't need multiple babysitters.
  • The jungler generally keeps up in exp with the duo lane. Thus 2 champs get solo exp and 3 get duo, rather than 4 with duo and one with solo.
  • If you lack a jungler, the enemy jungler can take your jungle for additional EXP, giving him solo EXP while you get duo.
  • If you don't have a jungler, the enemy lanes will get early red and blue buffs.
  • Junglers get more EXP than roamers.

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Why is there so little game changing motivations? I ALWAYS see the Tank top, Jungle dude, Solo mid and Dual bot strat. It is very frustrating...

Why the dual goes bot? Is it for proximity to Dragon's camp?
The reason the meta doesn't change is that the dominance of AD carries continues unabated.

And yes, Dragon is the reason to send your duo to bot lane.

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Why Tank would not solo mid? It is a shorter lane and will be much easier to last hit there, whithout getting harrashed at all... You always picke the top lane considering the offensive posibilities of the champion per se? Almost all the top solos i watched have some sort of "blink strike" skill.
Tanks don't go solo mid because they get abused by aggressive champions in mid. The very shortness of the lane that protects them from ganks also protects their opponents, meaning they get mercilessly harassed. On the other hand, top is long enough that squishy ranged champs are quite susceptible to jungle pressure, and so tend to get eaten by ganks. The gap closer isn't necessary in mid, you can often just walk away from an incoming gank, but in top you have to travel further to safety so it becomes important.


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I miss the "semi-carry", the 2 or 3 supports and the über push strats from DoTA; but i also really want to get into this game competitively (dunno if that word actually exists, lol).

Anyone open for debate? How about explaining all this stuff? Thanks in advance
Most mages and bruisers are really semi carries when you think about it, with only a few exceptions.


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TheFriendlyUncle

Senior Member

09-26-2012

played dota for about 8 years before i started playing lol, played my shares of competitive games include gosu cup. The short answer for your concerns with the meta and lane setup is that the two games are inherently different. They have the same concept but so much elements are only present in one game and not the other.

I will agree to a point that dota ultimately offers more variable team composition and lane setup 3-1-1 , 2-1-2, 1-2-1+roam,3-1 + a roam/jungle whatever else. LoL is more about mechanic variances with stuff like spells that actually increase in damage as you obtain more ability power or attack damage, or hero that can functions with health,rage, energy instead of mana. Lane distances are also equal and you don't run into troubles like creep pulling or short/long lanes like dota.

So yes you will have a hard time adjusting to the LoL meta, but it is what it is at this stage. They are two different games, its like me saying i cant understand playing call of duty competitively with my counter strike mindset.


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BetaGod

Senior Member

09-26-2012

Wow, okay. Seems like the LOL's community isn't so bad as everyone says after all! I tooked my time and read all of your comments. First of all, thanks a lot for the aid, it was REALLY important for me to get into the metagame itself. I think i know understand pretty much everything related to my questions. Of course, the only thing i can do for now is keep playing thoose public games and devour as much replays and comments as i can

I noticed no one flamed about the DoTA comparisons out there, and everyone tried to step on my shoes for better understanding. I think i am doubt free now! hahaha. The community here seems nice and this fact motivates me to keep learning.

However, it will be really helpfull if someone could provide some sort of "Top Pick/Ban Champ's list" so i can check out who is competitive and who is actually ****. When i started playing semiproffesional DoTA a few years back, i did it by playing support role. I might as well do the same here, until i learn every aspect that i am surely missing.

Thanks again and have a nice day!


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TheFriendlyUncle

Senior Member

09-26-2012

Try this http://www.reignofgaming.net/
the tabs on top gives information as to either you are looking for 3v3 5v5 solo team jungle whatnot.


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ninjagear

Senior Member

09-26-2012

i dont know about other elos (im 1200 atm) but here is what i have seen in my elo bracket consistently.other people will call these elo specific or fotm:

1.) for as long as i have played (about a year) morgana has always been a top ban, her lane phase is extremely safe, and even with 2 or 3 people ganking her while extended, she can walk away from it. she farms easy mode, and her ult wrecks teamfights if used properly.

2.) atm blitzcrank has seen increased popularity due to some recent buffs on his q and he is a top ban. his CC is incredible and even after lane phase can be a menace to an enemy team that isnt paying close attention to him. during lane phase he will kill anyone that he lands a Q on except for only a handful of the tankier supports.

3.) shen gets banned because his built in teleport lets him gank from other lanes/the jungle AND shield someone while doing it. he has AoE CC, strong damage output, and good survivability.

4.) amumu/malphite/alistar are the top bruiser bans, as they have retardedly good AoE CC, and they all jungle like bauses.

5.) rengar is the new champ, hes kinda OP if played properly, and is the current fotm ban


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BetaGod

Senior Member

09-26-2012

Great! Thanks guys.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

09-26-2012

Someone linked reign of gaming, its definitely a good start, but keep in mind that nearly any champion will work, some of the scariest players in my elo are heimerdinger specialists and katarina specialist(pre buff).

Don't worry so much about specializing in a role too much, also as you are an ex dota player your mechanics will carry over very fast, find champions you like, learn who they are good against, weak against, and then expand your roster to include a response to champions your first pick is weak against, ranked play is all about being able to have a response to all situations.

As far as support champions, taric and alistar are very strong, blitzcrank is good too, sona, janna and leonare picks you take based on what your opponents picks are and what your team needs


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8Bit Poro

Senior Member

09-27-2012

Lots of questions. ADC support bot lane was created for primarily dragon control. 2 people bottom near dragon allowed for faster dragons. Often now you see teams switch up where the duo lane goes, but particularly in lower elo that is the strict meta.

Why there are two carries? AP and AD. Simple, if you have and has been proven that if your team has purely 1 type of carry, the enemy team stacks defense agaisnt that type of carry and you will lose. Often some team comps will run a tankier AP carry top also, the primary role of the AP carry is similar to a bruiser (TANK IS A LOW LEVEL TERM), which is to disrupt and remove the AD carry from the team fight. While the AP carry doesnt do it quite the same way as the bruiser, the AP gives the option to punish instantly the AD carry if his positioning is off.

Why the "Tank", but Bruiser toplane. Bruisers are generally better at escapes, or tankier. Top lane is a longer lane (same reason for duo bot lane as opposed to mid), there is only one way to run opposed to up or down in mid lane. So by putting a bruiser top lane, in theory they have better chance of surviving ganks by the jungler. Bruisers also have the role like AP described above to EITHER, Peel for your own AD carry (with crowd control), or to disrupt the enemy AD or kill them.

Jungle, why its not roaming? Last season league went through a roaming meta, but found that due to high elo warding like a rampant disease, roaming just simply isnt effective. Roaming generally means your not getting XP, (roaming is not the jungler), and not only are you not getting XP, your not getting gold. Without gold and XP, idc what champ you are you become ineffective late game.

Why support with AD? Simply concept actually, support is there to baby sit and allow maximum gold usage for the ADC to damage and other shannanagans they need. Supports are the primary peel for the AD as well.

Hope this helps some, often your looking at this meta from low level play. To understand it better i would suggest watching higher elo streams/the world championships


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BetaGod

Senior Member

09-27-2012

Awesome explanation there, mate. I still have a couple of questions, tho:

1- Who is supposed to ward? (In DoTA it was a support only job, but in League i see both bruiser and AP dmg dealer buying wards every now and then).

2- Is there a guide for right ward placement? Or i should just thrust my instincts?

3- As a bruiser (thank GOD you don't use the "tank" term either, i hate it so bad...), I should start the fight? And inmediatly after it, focus on the enemy AD carry? I guess this actually depends on the type of champion and general lineup, so feel free to avoid this question!

4- How about runes? When should i start filling some pages? I have about 4-5 tier 3 marks built for a Nocturne AD build right now. I am summoner level 21 or so.

5- When does Dragon spawn? And how much minutes do i have to wait to kill him once again? 190 gold for the entire team seems pretty good if a team manages to get him every time he spawns.

Uhmm i think this is quite all for now. Thanks again for your consideration!


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Gothlane

Junior Member

09-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetaGod View Post
Wow, okay. Seems like the LOL's community isn't so bad as everyone says after all! I tooked my time and read all of your comments. First of all, thanks a lot for the aid, it was REALLY important for me to get into the metagame itself. I think i know understand pretty much everything related to my questions. Of course, the only thing i can do for now is keep playing thoose public games and devour as much replays and comments as i can

I noticed no one flamed about the DoTA comparisons out there, and everyone tried to step on my shoes for better understanding. I think i am doubt free now! hahaha. The community here seems nice and this fact motivates me to keep learning.

However, it will be really helpfull if someone could provide some sort of "Top Pick/Ban Champ's list" so i can check out who is competitive and who is actually ****. When i started playing semiproffesional DoTA a few years back, i did it by playing support role. I might as well do the same here, until i learn every aspect that i am surely missing.

Thanks again and have a nice day!
Lower elo, blitz/malphite/alistar/morgana/shen are almost always perma banned. Sometimes Rengar now since Rengar top is absurd. Cho'Gath is a good champ to get good with (mid/top/jungle), counters ALOT of champs. Jayce/Jax/Irelia are incredibly strong top laners, with Ahri/Ryze/Gragas mid lane. Bot lane ADC Corki/Ez are two of the strongest because of their early game, Vayne is stronger late, but has no mobility for early ganks like Ez/Corki. Supports can be dependent on the ADC, Nunu great for Vayne, not so much for some of the others. Leona and Taric are strong all around, and Soraka is good for a mana heavy "poking" ADC (Varus/Cait/etc).

Higher Elo the bans are much different with Twisted Fate, Rengar, and Yorick being some of the more common ones.

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3- As a bruiser (thank GOD you don't use the "tank" term either, i hate it so bad...), I should start the fight? And inmediatly after it, focus on the enemy AD carry? I guess this actually depends on the type of champion and general lineup, so feel free to avoid this question!
If you have an initiate yes, if not as some one said you go in second. Certain ones, Jax/Panth/ Renekton can pull it off, but aren't recommend. Renekton is one of my favorite for his ability to chew up ADC's. Jax is probably one of the strongest "snowballing" bruisers, he has a gap closer, a stun, 2 defensive cooldowns, and MASSIVE damage output. Jayce is also up there in terms of raw damage, not much for CC (a minor knockback and slow).