RiotGuinsoo, take note: I've won my last 18 Dominion games...as Karma!

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dustyspells

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CombatCube View Post
Proof (count Dominion games only): http://lolmatches.com/playermatches/na/22814344

Karma is extremely strong on Dominion. I usually play her bottom lane. I've beaten Zyra, Yorick, Jayce, Diana, Mordekaiser, and other really strong bottom lanes all thanks to Karma.

Karma doesn't suffer from the problems she has on Summoner's Rift because on Dominion there's passive mana regen and much more gold gained. I can harass the hell out of my opponent with Q's, and if they jump on me, I just RE. Dealing damage with W is relatively easy (there's usually minions to tag) and it gets that 0.7 AP ratio down. Killing minions is a breeze with Karma's all-AoE kit and I usually finish games having earned the most gold.

When holding points with or without teammates, Frozen Heart and Athene's Unholy Grail does the job very nicely. 40% CDR at Level 13 = 12 second mantras! Shields, resistances, % healing and Inner Flame make for one tanky AP. Once I've finished my core (Frozen Heart, Athene's Unholy Grail and choice boots) I head to Rabadon's for offense and defense thanks to dat passive. Abyssal and Zhonya's complete this balanced build.

I know Guinsoo's looking to rework Karma to be more support-like, and that's fine, but please don't take away Karma's potential for being such a strong AP, on Dominion or otherwise!
By the way, how does that lolmatches.com work? Can I use that site to see my old match records? (Apparently in-game display show only small number of previous games)


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CombatCube

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendaryEnemy View Post
I had so much fun running Leona+Karma with friends way back in the before time.
I hear ya. I brought my Dominion Elo up to almost 1700 (when it was visible) by running Karma + Pantheon. Then someone suggested that Karma bot was strong. I tried it out and stomped. Haven't played another champion on Dominion since. =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuri Ono View Post
Shouldn't Rylai's be a staple, before Deathcap, and not a late game optional? APs in general seem to perform so much better when they have that semi-tanky boost of HP. Especially as you have no guarantee of a game running late enough to get past 3-4 items tops. In all those early-mid game victory cases Sustainable DPS (is usually) > Brass (enough AR/MR to be out of 'glass' range with her shield) Cannon.

Also considering Karma already has a slow on her W the slow from Rylai's passive would help set up ganks beautifully for your team I would think. (Making it even more of a Core Build item.) Then again; just my 2 coppers.
The health is beneficial since it multiplies your resistances, but max CDR is core; Frozen Heart + Athene's (or other CDR items) have to come first. I guess you could get Rylai's next, but Rabadon's scales so, so well with not only the other items, but Karma's passive, too. At Level 12, her passive gives her up to 110 AP (1.1 AP / % missing health, so 100% missing health = 110 AP); with Rabadon's that becomes up to 143 (1.43 AP / % missing health).

Let's say you got Frozen Heart, Athene's Unholy Grail, Sorcerer's Shoes, and Rabadon's (which is what I typically build), you're at say 20% health, and you have Potency Quints and Force Glyphs. You'd have (90 + 140 + 18 + 15 + 80*1.1)*1.3 (which is Athene's + Rabadon's + Runes + passive, plus 30% from Rabadon's), which totals to 456 AP, and you only have four items! If you maxed Soul Shield you're already shielding (and nuking if Mantra'd) 645 damage.

As for the slow, yes, a 35% slow is great for catching enemies, but Karma's Spirit Bond target does not receive the damage portion of the ability, so Rylai's would not slow the target any further. In order for Spirit Bond to actually apply Rylai's slow, you'd have to damage the enemy with it, which means targeting something else behind your enemy and intersecting them with it. In fact, all of Karma's damaging abilities are AoE, so even WoTA isn't a good option on her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larkhill View Post
the problem with this is she's a support. she shouldnt be capable of going pure dmg and succeeding. i think of this as what happened with that brief period of soraka and lulu mid. is it fun? sure. but its just not what they're meant to do.

like it or not, riot has a set role in mind when they make a champion and when people go beyond that, they dont really like it. ap rengar is a perfect example. could they have balanced it and still kept it useful? sure. but they didnt want to. they want him to be AD and thats that. karma, like it or not, is a support. riot only releases 2 or 3 of them a year and she was supposed to be 1 of them. right now ,we can all agree that she does not do well as a support and thats why she's getting a remake.
You're mostly right, and that's exactly why I made this post in the first place. However, just because a champion should be played support doesn't mean they have to be. Therefore, I want Guinsoo to keep in mind Karma's potential for an AP carry, on Dominion or otherwise, when he does his rework, because he's tweeted before that Karma should function like Sona does bottom lane on Summoner's Rift. Stuff about the rework has been hinted at, like Q healing by default, but knocking back targets if Mantra'd; W unable to target enemies; and Mantra feeling more like an ultimate. Some of that has probably been scrapped, but the numbers are what's concerning me right now.

At least she's currently in a "bad" position where no one plays her and Riot hasn't changed anything because they're in the middle of reworking her. I like where she is now, at least on Dominion. =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyspells View Post
By the way, how does that lolmatches.com work? Can I use that site to see my old match records? (Apparently in-game display show only small number of previous games)
A match will be recorded on LolMatches if at least one of the players is running a LolMatches client during the match. This is why only some of the games you've played are on there; since you're not running the client yourself, not every match will be recorded, but some will be because some of the players with whom you're playing will have it running. I've been running it for a few months now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urmamasllama View Post
karma really doesn't need the rework her W is kind of wonky but the problem is that her base damage numbers are disproportionately low compared to how short range her spells are. that and her slow is hella weak and should be ~ 50% stronger than it is now
Her base values are actually quite interesting. Spirit Bond (W) has the highest base value of any of Karma's abilities, and a 0.7 AP ratio to boot. Thing is, this damage is hard to pull off, since it requires your enemies to intersect the beam (not get targeted by it). Its slow/speed value increases with level, and unlike Karma's other abilities, its cooldown decreases with level, too. If you leveled the ability that gives you the most damage and utility, it makes sense to level this ability first - I was actually considering trying this in a game to see how it went. Most people, including myself, max E first in most situations, since it has a pretty good base value, a 0.8 AP ratio, and it's the best in skirmishes. Maxing Q is best for pushing.

Her slow *can* be stronger - 100% stronger in fact - if you Mantra it, and believe me, there are cases when this is the best option. If you're getting ganked bottom lane, Mantra-W the ganker - you'll be sped up 20% and the ganker will be slowed down 20% - for five seconds. The combination of a slow and speed buff does wonders (just ask any Orianna player - but Karma's slow is ranged). Late game, when the base speed modifier is 20% (and you have like 600 AP), you can close gaps with Mantra-W (40% slow and 40% speed buff for 5 seconds) and catch stragglers trying to escape. 12 seconds per Mantra is enough, especially if you have resistances.


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Koravel

Senior Member

09-25-2012

I wanted to thank you for posting this up, it inspired me to try it out.

It's loads of fun- I am curious, what masteries/rune setup do you use?


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naotasan

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volandum View Post
I'd just get the giant's belt if you want HP.
Karma doesn't need a lot of HP items due to her epic shield. Even more so when you have low HP, it gives you like half of your HP back as a shield.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by naotasan View Post
Yes, Karma is very strong when she's on the right team..
OP plays her bottom, where being on the right team is not an issue. He uses minions.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larkhill View Post
the problem with this is she's a support. she shouldnt be capable of going pure dmg and succeeding. i think of this as what happened with that brief period of soraka and lulu mid. is it fun? sure. but its just not what they're meant to do.

like it or not, riot has a set role in mind when they make a champion and when people go beyond that, they dont really like it. ap rengar is a perfect example. could they have balanced it and still kept it useful? sure. but they didnt want to. they want him to be AD and thats that. karma, like it or not, is a support. riot only releases 2 or 3 of them a year and she was supposed to be 1 of them. right now ,we can all agree that she does not do well as a support and thats why she's getting a remake.
Orianna, Morgana, and Lux are supports, too. Oh, and TF is an AD. The point being, Riot doesn't want to force characters into roles.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuri Ono View Post
Shouldn't Rylai's be a staple, before Deathcap, and not a late game optional? APs in general seem to perform so much better when they have that semi-tanky boost of HP.
Karma gets a semi-tanky boost of resistances instead, and the CDR lets her heal herself more.


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STANKSTORM DELTA

Member

09-26-2012

Ran five co-op games and a real game after reading this; LOADS of fun. Thanks, OP; this is hilarious fun! Bursting down a Jayce and Poppy twice in one game on low HP was an absolute riot. : D

For passives, I'm taking M. Pen Reds, Flat AP Quints, Scaling AP Blues, and Armor Yellows.and 21/9/0, Ignite and Revive.


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lbgsloan

Senior Member

09-26-2012

I'll have to try her bot, it's too frustrating trying her top and having people keep running away from you. STOP, LET ME SHIELD YOU DAMN IT!


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byobsoad2

Senior Member

09-26-2012

tons of fun, but I find myself getting squished so easily. Gonna have to start building a bit tankier and being more careful. I'm used to playing Amumu now lol