Introducing Honor!

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aggrbargl

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyrraj View Post
I'm sick of the over useage of the word "toxic".

Toxic players are needed, otherwise the game would turn into a community of infant manchildren who can't take criticsm.
You don't seem to understand the difference between criticism and insults.

Or, since it's all the same to you: shut up, you festering ****spill.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sunaseth

Senior Member

09-25-2012

I'm eager to see how this system plays out. I can't wait to be able to do something to thank those players that truly stand out.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dodo Torpedo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyrraj View Post
I'm sick of the over useage of the word "toxic".

Toxic players are needed, otherwise the game would turn into a community of infant manchildren who can't take criticsm.
Criticism can be given without being a jackass. I rarely listen to advice from someone who has a toxic attitude even if its sound and warranted.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dyrraj

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

09-25-2012

There you go, perfect example of someone who can't take it, well done Aggrbargl.

Still so many people can't identify between 'being a jackass' and 'stern', which is my issue mostly, since you can't tell the tone/pitch/volume/body language via text based communication. Thus ignorant people will be ignorant from information crucial to their own personal improvement within the game. Then again i'm a lone/nerd/unsocial/etc.

Psychological science, cool stuff! Quite an interesting update coming it seems.

Furthermore, a bit of google

tox·ic/ˈtäksik/
Adjective: Poisonous.
Noun: Poisonous substances.
Synonyms: adjective. poisonous - venomous - toxicant - virulent - noxious
noun. poison - venom - bane - toxicant

I just don't think this word is appropriate, inappropriate seems more appropriate


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Empty Jack

Junior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyrraj View Post
I just don't think this word is appropriate, inappropriate seems more appropriate
I'm pretty sure in this instance, the use of the word "toxic" is meant to represent players that make your playing experience worse without benefit. Players that use the chat or the game to vent their rage rather than offer advice to fellow players.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ThulsaD00M

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Wow this is my idea. I called it commendations, but still I feel a little like my intellectual property has been absconded. Maybe you should slide me a bobsled corki to make it even, eh? *nudge, nudge* *wink, wink* Eh? Say no more....

Anyway, I commend you Riot. Well played, even if it should have been there from the start.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raptoreyes

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
It's possible, but think of it this way: The matchmaking system is supposed to pair similar skilled players together. Team Player Behavior is constantly tinkering with matchmaking to improve it.

On average, players will all have some great games where they carry (and may get some fistbumps of Honor) and in some games, they will play poorly.
As reasoning goes so far so good and to be fair I like the reasoning in most of your posts. However.... the next statement below does not fall into that category. First lets read the quote and ill explain below.

Quote:
So on average, the amount of Honor you get for 'carrying' is going to be about the same for every player unless you are grossly out of place in your matchmaking.
The statement just above this one would logically track IF all players played all positions about equally. (they do not) Or might work if the data at the game conclusion screen highlighted certain data prominently enough for other players to notice the contributions of supports and tanks. This data can be looked up but most people do not click through the screen to look up numbers on "damage taken" for tanks for example.

One of the primary weaknesses of the system is player perception. Most people just look at CS and damage on the end game screen to see "who carried" when the carry can be one of the smaller contributions in who wins a team fight at high mid and high skill levels. If your playing a tank or worse a support your contribution is not visible enough as in..."your only yelled at when you make a mistake or blamed for a bad play but invisible when you make it possible for your carry to auto attack his way to victory". Carries on the other hand are noticed when they do well and people seem to notice little else but the all mighty kill to death ratio, damage and CS numbers. (a mindset common among all games where the person who "scores the points" is visible and those who enabled him are relatively unknown) (quick can anybody name the people who were Denis Rodman's closest proximity supports??)

Will their be any built in honor adjustments for those who play supports/pure tanks so that their score goes up faster with less honor granted. Otherwise the best way to game the new honor system is to be good at playing a carry while the best way to make little honor relative to your actual game impact is to play a support. Will their be modifiers built in "weighting mechanics" to compensate for the general inadequacies of the human brains very own "attention prioritizing mechanics" and general poor ability to attribute credit where it is actually due.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Noboty

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyrraj View Post
I'm sick of the over useage of the word "toxic".

Toxic players are needed, otherwise the game would turn into a community of infant manchildren who can't take criticsm.
Ha

haha


AHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raptoreyes

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I don't see it this way. We've run numerous models and simulations about how we believe the system will be used, but human behavior is not 100% predictable--especially when you are trying something new like an Honor Initiative in an online game where there isn't too much research on these types of things yet.

For example, let's say our models suggest that the chance of 'good' behavior is currently 15% for any random League player and this will increase to 20% over 6 months. Let's also say our models suggest that when a League player is 'good,' there's a 30% chance someone else will actually Honor them. We can set values according to these models, but if it turns out that 'good' behavior is currently 10% for any random League player, we need to adjust the values accordingly.
Hopefully it takes into account the extreme tenancy to phrase the carry or assassin (perhaps as per your example a 30% chance to honor the carry). While at the same time perhaps a non VoIP using random support player you encounter might only get a 3% chance of being singled out for honor as support player contributions to the game are generally not noticed unless your duo-queuing with them over some sort of VoIP program. Tanks also have similar issues getting any credit for excellent or outstanding play because.... anything that is not damage tends to be invisible to the emotion centers of the human brain.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raptoreyes

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Just like the Tribunal, we want to avoid obvious extrinsic, tangible rewards like currency when we start our experiments. We want to identify players who are good just because that's their personality. We want to identify players who want to just make a difference in the community.

I know we need to 'reinforce' the good behaviors, but let's first make sure the systems are identifying the positive pillars of the community
Uhhh oh ..... I feel an obscure book reference coming on. Read the "Peter Principal" if you have not already. While the book criticized how modern corporations reward people by "promoting them to their level of incompetence" this system has another related danger common of all places in high schools. The most visible contributions to the mammal brain get the most attention but what is visible to the human brain is often times at direct odds with what is in reality the most positive contribution.

You may have the intention that the system be used to reward good personalities but it will likely be used to reward the player that had the best K/D/R ratio even if their personality is at best neutral at worst slightly toxic. Which would be fine if the carry were really the most important position on the team... but as game designers of Riot probably know the game was designed to require a team effort to win. The human mind will however constantly seek to appoint most of the credit on to the person who "won" the match "for their team." (also called the "alpha male or super star myopia which human minds are constantly mesmerized by)

A huge perceptual stumbling block that will be difficult at BEST to design around. At worst is could become the Achilles heel of the entire system as designed. Lyte is their any way I can contact the dev department quietly with some numbers and play patterns that your software is unlikely to detect which could be considered hard to detect abuse if orchestrated over VoIP? I don't want to give those who desire to game the system a head start on doing so.

This is a real issue because the system ties into peoples perception of indirect reward. Many people will simply give honor to those who "won the game for them" who they are likely to mis-identify at low to medium skill levels and below in any case. Not the person who made the chat screen something to read rather then ignore. Most people if they are serious communicate over VoIP with one or more friends anyway and use the chat log ONLY if they MUST. The chat interface falls off in usefulness especially once red and YELLOW pings were added to the game to communicate basic forward and back suggestions.

I like the idea of this system quite a bit but so little of value is said over chat these days. Its one reason chat is so toxic because its too slow (in both the typing and the reading) in a fast paced game like this to be much more then an outlet for rage and snyde remarks. The good players with good personalities are already primarily using VoIP and organizing before play. Those without the time to pre-organize are also unlikely to spend much time on chat except to belt out very cliped one to two word commands.