AD Carry Discussion(and my pet peeve's, really)

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Jesot

Senior Member

09-17-2012

Depends on the champ. On Ashe, I'll build AD first. On Vayne, I'll boost my AS earlier. Never build defense. If you need defense before your sixth item, you should be playing a different role.


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troilism

Member

09-17-2012

You want to know my pet peeves? Sona, janna and soraka are all supports and they are the best at ****ing up their abilitys and pushing my lane/stealing cs.

Cleanse counters you amazing ignite/exhaust and it is used often. Heal is great you can use it while cced.

BT is good on champs that cast sells for main source of damages example during laneing graves and sivir are all about a couple of AA pokes then dropping your abilitys also they both farm waves like champs.

Wards are important if your support got greedy buy a ward to save your ass, if your team is all out doing things with no plan of return pick up wards.

Armor yellows/mrs blues is standard on most champs in game.

I have a question for you why dont supports ever use their ranged autos to harass?

Why dont supports ever save their wards when mid is in their lane and jungle is ganking top what would you need to ward for then?

Why dont supports communicate with pings if they plan on going all in?

Why do supports try to end laneing phase before the ADC?


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Tr

Member

09-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlette View Post
(If I'm posting this in the wrong place, forgive me!)

Okay, so I may not have posted here, like ever, but I wanted to talk about the AD mindset, and what I typically see playing against other carries, or what I see my own carry is doing as a support.

Keep in mind, this is with my experience of over 3000 games, in the last 4 years, and not saying that I'm absolute awesome at this game, but I'm not inexperienced, and I probably DO know what I'm talking about.

In normal games, nobody usually gives a F*** but, I see several of my carries rushing Blood Thirster first item, after T2 boots, usually 'zerkers. I say that this approach is a BAD IDEA. Why? You get none of the survivability that you need early game when people jump on you, either from a jungle gank, or from that lane alone, and 'zerker boots aren't going to help you lifesteal that much if you don't have attack speed! As a support, nothing makes me more angry when I can punish a carry for being out of position(as leona, most of the time) and my carry dies, and I have to run away or get kills that should have been my carries. If my opponents have stuns, don't for the love of god, get 'zerkers. Additional attack speed doesn't do you any good if you're stunned the entire time, and get bursted, and lifesteal isn't going to help you when you're stunned.

Another thing. Not having any Magic resist or Armor even as an AD carry just screams out stupid to me. Mages can sometimes get away with this, because they have the crowd control necessary to keep people away from them(and do most of the damage, like annie), but AD carries rely on steady outputs of damage, which means being able to stay in range to continually do damage. I play my Ashe with 4.5 Movespeed quints, 15 armor pen, 13 flat armor, and 24 MR at 18. Why? Because with Ashe, it's all about positioning and kiting. If you get out of position, I can continually harass you with frost shot, and if you come back, I can slow you and run out. If I get ganked, flash and those movespeed quints helps. The same thing I think applies to a lot of the AD carries. Get in position to continually hit people, and be able to get out safely.

I also see people either *****ing or nothing at all about this particular subject: wards.

When I play any role in the game, I buy wards. Maybe not first, and maybe not as a priority, but I do get wards. I've seen my carry ***** at me for completing my philosopher stone and heart of gold instead of getting 20 bazillion wards. If my opponents are smart, they can get pink wards and completely negate any ward that I may place down, making regular wards in my inventory dead gold and unusable. Anybody else can get wards, and not just the AD carry. Since the support usually has no other source of income other than to wait it out or the occasional gank, it's pretty slow compared to farming minions, and continually buying wards is a waste of money. AD carries can help even just a little bit by buying wards every once in a while to help out their support and team with dragon vision and brush vision.

On the topic of summoner skills, I see heal on a great deal of carries as well. I don't get this. If you get ignited, your heal is useless to the amount of damage that I can put out. One example is: if I can jump on you with leona's leap, stun you, ignite you, and then you heal, that little amount is probably worthless, compared to an exhaust for the opposing carry. Going into late game, if you get caught, heal isn't going to do you much good versus a slow exaust, or ignite for additional damage and cutting down other people's lifesteal. The only application that I can see it being good for is for bait duels or bait tower dives, which don't happen if your opponent is smart, and ignites you, and by that time, you're already running again, because it was bait in the first place! I can't really say that pushing is a viable use of that summoner skill, because a health pot or a teleport are both much better in my opinion than heal.

TL;DR
Why do I see AD carries rushing BT first?

Why do I see AD carries playing with no resistances?

Why do I hear that supports are the ones that needs to buy wards?

Why do I see AD carries with heal?

(Oh, since I'm ranting, I might as well tell this story. For the love of god, don't first pick soraka to be mid in ranked. I said this to him, and I'll say it now, but that mid potential is WASTED. Yes, soraka has heals, but, if your jungler gets ganked, or needs help, your heals aren't going to do much if they're continually crowd controlled. People also aren't stupid enough to continually stand in star call either, so that offensive is garbage. Her silence range is much shorter than say, brand's pillar of fire, making her no mana costing harass useless. Soraka is a much better support for bot than in mid. -_- )

I'd like to hear your comments on what you think when you play AD carry, or support for said carry. Do you just don't give a **** to what your support does, and just farm? Or do you play aggressively because you want to zone out their AD carry? Etc, etc.
You said you know what you're talking about. I think youre absolutely wrong on every mindset.
1. BT first after zerks. Allows you to passively last hit and gives good damage and lifesteal for its cost. Im confused about what you would rather have them build. You want straight PD and doing no damage? but lifestealing with the 9% from doran's and masteries?
2. No resistances, only one i agree on. However, the mid comment about them getting away with it is kind of wrong. Mid's need resistances more since they're going against other AP carries that do magic damage..
3. Supports need to buy wards so that you dont get ganked and start feedin'. Yes they have pinks but the object of a ward is to know the location of the enemy. If they kill your ward. you know where they are. Its okay to get philo and HoG and rush them but try and sneak in 1-2 wards in each time you go back. If you're support im expecting you to have runes for GP10's. Trully, Jungler's can also buy wards, although they buy them to protect their buffs.
4. AD carries carry heal its known. You go heal, ignite, or cleanse. If you're a leona with ignite their is something incredibly wrong. Heal late game, believe it or not can save you from an ignite. If you kite and get the lifesteal going and get of heal, you shhould be golden. While in truth i do believe a cleanse is better, i dont doubt the situational use of heal. Bait heals are amazing. So many people forget to check summoner's its not even funny. Sometimes its that one tower dive summoner spell that just saves your booty.


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thepantsparty

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Senior Member

09-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlette View Post
Well, I agree with being damagy is the AD carry role, yes. But lifesteal doesn't give that much back to you with no attack speed. In most of my games, having that early bloodthirster didn't do much against having more Attack speed. If you can hit me once for 160 and lifesteal 20% of that, and I hit you twice for 100 in that time frame, I'll come out ahead, especially if I have higher health because of doran's blades or what have you. I still consider it a bad item to rush super early. I might get both the BF sword and a vamp scepter, but I'll keep them separate for other items.
The reason to prioritize AD items over AS items is that most AD carries have abilities that scale with AD, and those abilities get 0 bonus from AS.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

09-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by thepantsparty View Post
The reason to prioritize AD items over AS items is that most AD carries have abilities that scale with AD, and those abilities get 0 bonus from AS.
+1 this man. Very good point. Most AD carries are reliant on their abilities early game to deal additional damage. Building AS without having built AD drastically reduces your early game damage output and poke capability.


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margalolwut

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Senior Member

09-18-2012

items should be circumstantial most of the time.

BT is viable if you can get the farm in.

Also, why get resistances if you are good at positioning yourself? An ADC's role is to dish out as much dmg as possible... Resistances wont help you do that. Now, you might ask, GOOD LUCK, you will be melted. Well this is where positioning comes in. Id say a huge part is being able to position yourself correctly and a small part is your team trying to protect you as well.

Example, if im playing naut i always keep my eye out for my ADC fleeing from a bruiser, and try to anchor him away. People always talk about "proper" targeting... and ive been on the receiving end of harassment when playing adc because i dont "focus the carries"... Well yea im not gonna ignore a bruiser and a tank coming after ME just to try and hit a carry that is completely on the other side of the fight. I have 2 priorities when i ADC 1) dont die right away 2) focus who i can without dying (see #1).


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margalolwut

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Senior Member

09-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by thepantsparty View Post
The reason to prioritize AD items over AS items is that most AD carries have abilities that scale with AD, and those abilities get 0 bonus from AS.

Yup. Also, some ADCs already have AS increasing abilities (kog, graves, ez).

AND if you are still in lane phase, your pokes will hurt a lot more.


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doombotMECHA

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Senior Member

09-18-2012

1 actual resistance item is pretty essential for the really short range carries imho (twitch, vayne, carry jayce, urgot, even draaaaaaven bc of his serious positioning problems; possibly excluding kayle and graves, graves for his passive and kayle for her ult) you just have to get way to close for comfort.
but of course, im unranked, and up in your elo maybe common sense isn't applicable.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

09-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlette View Post
First off, thanks for the replies!
Now, down to discussion.



Well, I agree with being damagy is the AD carry role, yes. But lifesteal doesn't give that much back to you with no attack speed. In most of my games, having that early bloodthirster didn't do much against having more Attack speed. If you can hit me once for 160 and lifesteal 20% of that, and I hit you twice for 100 in that time frame, I'll come out ahead, especially if I have higher health because of doran's blades or what have you. I still consider it a bad item to rush super early. I might get both the BF sword and a vamp scepter, but I'll keep them separate for other items.
You need to have a LOT of attack speed to be attacking twice for every one of my attacks.

Let's look at a level 6 Ezreal, just for example. Ezreal's base stats at level 6, if I've done my math right, look like this:

Attack Damage 62.2
Attack Speed 0.752

Now remember, those are base numbers with zero items built to enhance either stat.

Now, we can agree that damage per second is equal to attack damage multiplied by attack speed, right? So figuring from the base stats, your damage per second comes out to 46.77 or so.

There are two routes here for improving your damage per second. We can increase the damage we do with each attack, or we could increase our attack speed. Now, I know that the answer to maximizing your damage is a good mixture of both, but since we're looking at what's a better first option to build, we're going to look at pure damage versus pure attack speed.

If we keep damage constant at 62.2 but double our attack speed to 1.504, our damage per second comes out to 93.55 (our DPS is double). In order to get this, we must build +100% attack speed in our items. Let's just say we're getting this from 2 Recurve Bows and 1 Dagger (this would actually be 95% attack speed). That'll cost us 2,520 gold.

Alternatively, if we keep our attack speed constant at 0.752 and double our attack damage to 124.4, we'd also be doing 93.55 damage per second (again, we've doubled our DPS). Building a BF Sword and two Long Swords would add 65 damage and would cost 2,480 gold.

So, look at that. I figured not quite doubling attack speed would cost 2,520 gold, and slightly more than doubling attack damage would cost 2,480 . It's slightly cheaper to double our damage per second from attack damage. Now, once we get into combining items into bigger, more expensive items, the price gets closer, and honestly, the gap right here is pretty small (about 2%).

But, the damage per second figure only takes auto-attacks into consideration. This calculation takes no account for our abilities, which can add a considerable amount of damage as well. If the attack speed stat also lowered our cooldowns, then the math might be closer, but since it doesn't, attack damage comes out way ahead for a while at the early levels. At level 6, adding 100% attack speed and no attack damage doubles the damage of Ezreal's auto-attacks. However, at level 6, adding 60 attack damage gives your auto-attacks the same amount of damage per second, but will also add 60 damage to your Q and 60 damage to your R. Even with just one point in your Q at level six, Q has a 6 second cooldown. You've added 60 damage to it, so that translates into +10 damage per second for your Q. That's an extra 10 damage per second you get on top of having the same damage per second you got from building attack speed.


Again, don't get me wrong. For perfectly maximized damage per second, you do need a good mixture of attack damage and attack speed. Mixing in critical strike chance is also helpful, and Infinity Edge is great as it adds a lot of damage to your critical strikes, but in the early parts of the game, it's simply better to build attack damage first. It's not only slightly more cost efficient in enhancing your AA damage per second, but it also increases the damage of your abilities.


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KneeShot

Member

09-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by troilism View Post
You want to know my pet peeves? Sona, janna and soraka are all supports and they are the best at ****ing up their abilitys and pushing my lane/stealing cs.

..........

I have a question for you why dont supports ever use their ranged autos to harass?

Why dont supports ever save their wards when mid is in their lane and jungle is ganking top what would you need to ward for then?

Why dont supports communicate with pings if they plan on going all in?

Why do supports try to end laneing phase before the ADC?
this is basically the player's problem, not the champion

sona's Q is auto-locked, she need positioning to control the target
janna's Q is delayed and can aim to avoid hitting minions
soraka's Q is only used in team fights, you cannot think of pushing or not at that time

1. supports can use their AA to harass,
but some times their abilities have more utility than a single string/breeze/banana

2. if the support goes ward only when an enemy is mia,
then he/she would probably die on the way to ward,
also having wards in the bush on lane is sometimes better to spot enemy activity

3. ping, then go vs go immediately is a split second difference,
but that difference can determine whether the trade is successful or a passed chance.
you need to understand body language

4. matter of player, support is probably the one stare at the mini-map the most, much more than an ADC,
if the game is going into mid-game but you still want to keep laning phase in your lane,
you can get a whole enemy team pushing your lane and loss two towers
just because you don't want to take down that half-damaged tower.


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