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"Community doesn't agree with me. I'm done with Tribunal."

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NecroticBinder

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
Lucchinii:
It won't change MANY people's minds, but it will to SOME. That is better than nothing.

As it stands, the 20 second timer ENCOURAGES people to skim through cases.

Just because it won't be an effective change, doesn't mean the timer should not be increased.

I've felt like just skimming through some cases because I could already vote.
I'm pretty sure people have skimmed through cases because of the short timer.

Sigh. No. That is a bad idea. Captchas changed some peoples minds according to your logic. The problem is that they do not solve a problem, in fact they make it WORSE.

As I have said, and have been saying. If a person is going to read a case, they aren't going to care about the timer. Hell, the longer the timer the more likely they are to just do something else. I know I did because when we had a 60 second timer, I would enter the captcha, and go do something else and when I got done THEN I would read the case because of it's length. A long timer is not the solution at all. Just because increasing the timer is not effective, is why the timer should not be increased.

My question is, why would you skim the cases because of the short timer? Why? Logically, a timer is going to motivate you to do something else, or not motivate you at all. If you are a person who likes going through the cases and skimming or reading them, you are going to do that. If you are a person who wants to make a quick judgement, you are going to do that.

Yes, you are right that it's a problem that people aren't reading cases thoroughly, what you are doing is trying to approach it the exact wrong way. You need to motivate them to read the case, or you need to punish them for not reading the case. The timer does not do either of these things.

The first step to fixing this is establishing what threshold for behavior will we punish someone for. Are we going to check if they violated the summoners code enough over any of the games to deserve a ban? Then only one game would need to be seen but the others should be checked if they are punishable if the first one would pardon. If that route was elected then we could have the players punish or pardon individual games.

Another option would be asking if they need to have created a certain amount of toxicity amongst all the games that are seen? Then you would have people look through all their cases, I feel that the former solution is much more practical then the latter but I also hold a stricter view in regards to punishing players who are toxic.

Edit: To emphasis why increasing the timer is bad. The longer timer is more likely to dissuade players who don't want to wait when they have already made a judgement on a case that is relatively easy. A short timer keeps players from spamming which is good.


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Fruity Sebbles

Associate Product Manager

09-15-2012

The team is always looking for more system-driven ways to encourage thoughtful and valuable participation. We have discussions like the ones you're having in this thread every day.

I think the point of the thread though, is that the system can only go so far. To truly maximize the value of the Tribunal, the community needs to maximize the quality of its votes. So please keep up the good votes!

Personally I vote a bunch, but I dunno if that counts as Riot oversight or community participation at this point :P


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UglyPete

Senior Member

09-15-2012

I think there should be a 3rd button just for warning people with pardon/punish being their own thing. Some people may be voting for pardon because they don't think a ban is warranted, but would be more than happy to see the person warned.


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Zyrus4tw

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Tribunal is a joke, so many cases where people are swearing and directly say "I'm trolling" get pardoned, never bothering with this **** again.

Examples.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/case/5711677/ Constantly insulted team in game 1, didn't care about the rest of the games, that's reason enough to punish.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/case/5711477/ Called people "gay noobs" and "stupid noobs" and etc. Didn't care about other games, reason enough to punish.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/case/5711604/

Master Yi [00:26:41] fkn hopeless
Master Yi [00:27:00] go home heal
Master Yi [00:27:01] moron

And so on, why are these cases getting pardoned? They're making one mistake, needs to be warned at the very least. Yet they get pardoned, like I said, done with the **** system.


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AMDphreak

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
lagNZ:
all of my 'incorrect' cases seem to be ones where i chose to punish for the use of 'noob' and general put downs. Also quite a few people have trouble telling if someone is feeding like this case http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/case/5706901/#nogo


Seriously? Discrepancies, discrepancies! If this complete loser can get pardoned from feeding, then why was mine punished, and why was my Warning magically changed into a Time Ban for something as frivolous as my case?

Here's my case:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/5675101/#nogo


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JohnnyOmega

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
AMDphreak:
Seriously? Discrepancies, discrepancies! If this complete loser can get pardoned from feeding, then why was mine punished, and why was my Warning magically changed into a Time Ban for something as frivolous as my case?

Here's my case:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/5675101/#nogo



Riot staffer perform audits of players from time to time and review both the incidents in most recent cases as well as the incidents that led up to the case that weren't shown in Tribunal.

The reviewer can then manually adjust the punishment based on the severity and consistency of violation gleaned from the audit.

This could be what happened in your situation but to be certain you'll have to contact Riot Support.


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Zyrus4tw

Senior Member

09-15-2012

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/case/5711349/

Teemo [00:14:43] back to ur lane stupid d1ckhead kenne
Teemo [00:24:57] suck to vigine???
Teemo [00:25:34] lol u eva been to a place called school kid? motherfkin arzh0ke
Teemo [All] [00:29:45] nope i am trollin

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/case/5660552/

Nocturne [00:19:43] no you were ****
Nocturne [00:19:47] 2-2
Nocturne [00:19:49] you deserve to lose

More examples.

This tribunal system is garbage, why do these cases keep getting pardoned? I thought this was to clear all toxic players, not to pardon and enable them.


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Gotchaye

Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
RiotSeb:

I think the point of the thread though, is that the system can only go so far. To truly maximize the value of the Tribunal, the community needs to maximize the quality of its votes. So please keep up the good votes!

But then you probably shouldn't have built a system around telling people what a majority is voting for and then rewarding them for voting with that majority. The changes make it harder to act the way that the OP is describing. Riot gives people positive feedback for pardoning things that they think should be punished.

"The system" isn't a given. You had a nearly blind system until recently which probably did a much better job of representing what the community actually thought about things (especially with algorithms to weed out people who are voting randomly or voting one way on every case). The main advantage of the new system is the reform card which makes it harder for people to whine about unjustified bans. The main disadvantage is the accuracy and streak scoring which encourages meta-gaming. But these are separable.

If you're committed to accuracy scoring, then it needs to be mostly based on whether or not people are voting the way Riot would want them to vote. Have Riot people judge a few thousand cases each month and score Tribunal judges on their dis/agreement with the Riot-judged cases only.


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Arcane Azmadi

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
Lucchinii:
It just hurts seeing the accuracy and Elo go down further and further because of it.

Before we could see those, I didn't really care. But seeing them so low just makes me question myself when it comes to "justice", y'know?

I'll keep trying but I'm just not that motivated anymore.

Gotta agree with you here. It's really disheartening that I put so much effort into reading every case but I see obvious trolls getting majority pardoned. Makes me wonder if what I'm doing is even worthwhile. I have a 53% accuracy out of 30 cases and for most of those I STILL wouldn't even consider changing my vote. So apparently I'm a bad Tribunalist for thinking that pointless abuse and rudeness has no place in this game.


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ArmoredDragonIMO

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
RiotSeb:
The team is always looking for more system-driven ways to encourage thoughtful and valuable participation. We have discussions like the ones you're having in this thread every day.

I think the point of the thread though, is that the system can only go so far. To truly maximize the value of the Tribunal, the community needs to maximize the quality of its votes. So please keep up the good votes!

Personally I vote a bunch, but I dunno if that counts as Riot oversight or community participation at this point :P


Could we mandate that the person must read more than 50% of the games in the report before making a judgement? I've seen many cases where in the first game, nothing was wrong, and they were pardoned. However in the later games, you can see clear violations of the summoner code.

It really looks as though they just read the first game's chat logs and make a judgement based on that alone.