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I can confirm that standard AD kog'maw DOES work in dominion

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konfetarius

Senior Member

09-13-2012

How does Chalice make up for doubling of the mana drain after wind up? AP Kog wasn't strong because he could do fire off a few shots and then not do anything while the stack went away. It was strong because you could realistically sustain his full stack R for the duration of a team fight.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
konfetarius:
How does Chalice make up for doubling of the mana drain after wind up? AP Kog wasn't strong because he could do fire off a few shots and then not do anything while the stack went away. It was strong because you could realistically sustain his full stack R for the duration of a team fight.


Kog doesn't 'Wind up'. Every successive cast is always negative, we're not talking about Kassadin here.

You don't need to sustain his R for the full duration of the 'team fight'. You need to sustain it for as long as you need to. As long and there is pressure on you or one of your points.

It's only a 6 second reset. Spam 5/6 times, wait 6s, repeat.

Chalice helps you be able to sustain the overall increase in cost it had.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

09-13-2012

The mana cost wind ups. It's poke that transitions into raw DPS as your opponents stop dodging and start fighting. It's extremely important to keep the R train going as the team fights erupts if you want to take full advantage of his late game. Hence, Kog'maw "winds up."

"Only" a 6 second reset is also known as potential ~3000 magic damage on a late game kog build. Not as bad as the 8 second they were testing on the PTR, but still.

Furthermore, having to go Chalice is a nerf in and of itself. Chalice does not provide raw survivability of Odyn Veil, Rod of Ages, Rylai, or Frozen Heart. It does not match the damage output of the mpen items. It is an inferior AP Kog'Maw item, so even if it did somehow allowed him to output the same number of R shots as the pre-mana cost nerf non-Chalice build did, it is still a serious nerf.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

09-13-2012

It's only a mana cost and has no effect on damage output unless its your limiting factor. And it was a straight nerf, of course. What are you arguing here?

You're not loosing damage potential unless you run out of mana while there is still an engagement.

There was a nerf. I offered Chalice as a solution. Saying being forced to build an extra item is a nerf is redundant...he was nerfed....

Fights on points are not lasting 40s here. People die quick in Dominion and I can't imagine that you will need to spam so heavily and eat your blue bar from full without finding 6s in between to let CS+Chalice refill you.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
You're not loosing damage potential unless you run out of mana while there is still an engagement.

Which you do. Because of the nerf. Which very rarely happened before post-core item build completion.

I am arguing that Chalice doesn't actually address or make up in any significant amount for the nerf like you are suggesting - I'd imagine Tear+Chalice+Cs Aura would make up for the mana nerf. AP Kog built via the mana route is a straight up late game AP carry that is actually gated by how much mana he can spend in a fight. Chalice does NOT address that while simultaneously weakening his build via opportunity cost if he gets it.

Quote:
Fights on points are not lasting 40s here. People die quick in Dominion and I can't imagine that you will need to spam so heavily and eat your blue bar from full without finding 6s in between to let CS+Chalice refill you.

You are seriously underestimating how fast Kog'Maw burns through mana and how important it is for a carry to keep on attacking. A fight doesn't need to last 40 seconds for that to happen. All you need is 5-10 seconds of poking prior to the pokefest transforming into an engagement. That 5-10 seconds is enough to burn through most of your mana bar, let alone having enough for the team fight following it.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
konfetarius:
I am arguing that Chalice doesn't actually address or make up in any significant amount for the nerf like you are suggesting


How does an extra 30-70 mp5 not make up for the nerf?

Chalice is 900 gold. It is barely a set back.

The thing is, you're thinking about how Old Kogmaw with Old Kogmaw's build compares to Nerfed Kogmaw with Old Kogmaws build.

When champions change, their builds need re-evaluation. I am talking about Nerfed Kogmaws build here. Optimize inside of the nerf we were handed.

It sounds like instead you're trying to convince me that AP Kog is dead, rather than offer viable solutions.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

09-13-2012

How does 6-14 mana per second does not make up for the burden of additional 300 mana per second drain?

I give you 3 guesses.

Quote:
It sounds like instead you're trying to convince me that AP Kog is dead, rather than offer viable solutions.

That's what generally happens when a pure late game build losses a colossal part of its damage output.

You can build other Kog'Maw builds with different focuses (AP + Lichbane for example), but the R focused mana builds are dead.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
konfetarius:

but the R focused mana builds are dead.


Good opinion. But that is your own.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
Phourc:
Anything in the 100-ish range should make it worth it (tm).

I do agree you don't usually see even tanks break 200 armor in Dominion, I was just pulling nice round numbers out of my ass xP


Leaguereplay replay browsing is offline, or I'd link you to the game I had last Friday, where the enemy team had:
Amumu:Ninja Tabi, Thornmail, FH, Randuin's.
Wukong: Ninja Tabi, Thornmail, Atma's Impaler.
Olaf: Thornmail.
Blitzcrank: Ninja Tabi, Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Sunfire Cape.
Yorick: Frozen Heart, Thornmail, Warden's Mail.

FUUUUUUUUUU.
Yeah, we had a last second switch from Kassadin to Udyr on our team Q.Q


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konfetarius

Senior Member

09-13-2012

I'll get back to you on the opinion thing when I see the first AP'Kogmaw appear (and actually work) in high elo since the nerf.