The problem with AD Carries in Dominion

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Risemix

Senior Member

09-13-2012

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Originally Posted by GrignardTS View Post
Yea, which is what makes them x10 harder to use in solo que. Your team really needs to jump on your pings for help.

Most just ignore then say you fail.
Yeah, having awesome positioning as an ADC player is just much harder on CS, you really need your team to help you. Good luck with that.


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Secretnir

Senior Member

09-13-2012

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Originally Posted by WaterD103 View Post
i do not feel ranged ad are the weakest archetype but Ap ranged carries. (which doesn't mean they are weak, just someone has to be the weakest)

Vayne, Corki, Ezreal, Kayle and kog maw are all pretty good, Caitlyn and Graves are pretty decent.

The major buff to ad carries if you ask me would be to remove revive (Except vayne and kog maw they like revive.)
But overall other than revive metagame making them slightly weaker, I do not see a problem with ranged Ad.

a) I see a ranged AD on every side everygame. (slightly less lately as teams are replacing their Ad ranged with Jayce, who does it all). In fact as ranged ad player i have the problem that I can't play them as much as i want because someone else always want to play one.
b) In tournaments most teams have ranged ad in their comps, this is even more true in EU where they have ranged ad something like 100% of the time.
c) If you check top players win ratios with ranged ad the are average (And broken with Ezreal)

So where is the evidence that ranged ad need helps?

The only Ranged AD that needs help imo is Tristana and maybe Miss fortune, but that is a specific champ problem. And there is a reason they stopped being picked in SR.
If you read the original post I was clearly talking about the general picture and specifically solo queue-- I said they were fine if you had a handpicked correct lineup to support them, which I presume tournament level Dominion teams will always have. So saying "you see them in tournaments where everyone is picking a really good team comp" is really irrelevant to what I'm talking about-- which is something more like "okay in a pub game you can pretty much expect to see picks like Teemo, Xin Zhao, Jax and Diana virtually every game...where can you put an Ashe or a Trist or a Cait into that without just dying the moment any 1 person decides to focus you?"


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Secretnir

Senior Member

09-13-2012

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Originally Posted by Argodis View Post
There is nothing wrong with ranged AD. The problem is bruisers. If there isn't a Jayce, Jax, Malphite, Irelia, etc on the enemy team, I do fine with AD carries. Sivir and MF are my go to AD Carries when I want a win.

In terms of solo queue, AD Carries that have strong early and/or mid games typically do the best on Dominion. Corki, Ezreal, MF, Graves, and Varus immediately come to mind.

But generally, for the first 15mins or so, having an AD carry on your team puts you at a disadvantage against a team that doesn't have one. However, as the game goes on, especially pass the 20min mark, the odds start to heavily favor the team with the AD Carry.


Nerf bruisers and a few AD casters = Dominion balanced.
I do completely agree that the "problem" with squishies, particularly AD squishies (though it includes many/most of the traditional casters) is that there's just too big an amount of bruisers who can gap close at you, lock you down/slow/stun you, and then kill you in about 1.3 seconds. Many of the most popular bruisers in Dominion are people who can blow up a carry they gap close onto before that carry will even have time to flash or use an escape ability. It's just looking at the problem from a different angle though.


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Quincunx

Senior Member

09-13-2012

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Originally Posted by Secretnir View Post
I do completely agree that the "problem" with squishies, particularly AD squishies (though it includes many/most of the traditional casters) is that there's just too big an amount of bruisers who can gap close at you, lock you down/slow/stun you, and then kill you in about 1.3 seconds. Many of the most popular bruisers in Dominion are people who can blow up a carry they gap close onto before that carry will even have time to flash or use an escape ability. It's just looking at the problem from a different angle though.
As a ranged AD player, I don't think this is as big of a problem as you imply. If I'm playing Kog'Maw, I can 1v1 most bruisers once I hit level 6 (in a melee-range duel), while out-ranging their gap-closers. If I'm playing Ezreal or Corki, I can shift away after the bruiser burns his gap-closer, and kite until the bruiser dies. Also, I always take exhaust, which basically negates the threat of those few bruisers that actually could pose a threat in the mid-late game, once every 3 minutes or so.

Really, the real bane to AD carries is assassins, because they practically force you to buy survivability or die (delaying your damage even further, making you a weaker bruiser depending on the AD carry until you can finally get items), and are designed to be extremely difficult to kill before unleashing their heavy burst (though they usually fall soon afterwards).

Just for fun, if you happen to get matched against a team of 3 bruisers + 2 assassins in solo queue as a ranged ad, just build pure tank and watch them focus you first anyway. They almost always do, in my experience, and at least you're not dead! If you're someone like Kog'Maw, you'll still probably do more damage than half of them, even building pure tank. Also, Sivir laughs at LeBlanc.


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Infirc

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Senior Member

09-14-2012

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Originally Posted by FDru View Post

Melee carries are a special case though; they have no place in Dominion at all. There's a reason you don't see Trynd, Fiora, AD Yi or AD Sion nearly ever.
well i'm guilty of Fiora spam when i want to troll around and have fun the point is i see them everywhere at my Elo, in fact that's how teams down here look if not for the ocassional Darius and Xin, sometimes trading Trynd for Jax, but that's pretty much every match at low Elo., i wish people would realize what you said, i really don't think many of the teams i get like that are actually troll spamming.


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

09-14-2012

FDru, that seems to imply that in SR Trynd, fiora, ad yi and ad sion are playable....


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Gustavo Soares

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Junior Member

09-14-2012

If you have a balanced team, (one thing that never happens in dominion) to AD melee carries work, and the only way to survive is stack damage, atack speed and life steal, with surge and ignite and go to kill!
trindamere is a special case, hard to play well in early game. But when reach lvl 6, can kill anyone if do a smart spin to close the gap and a W to secure the kill. Make then run to kill you and do a surprise move and spin to his face, and start to hit, probably they will run and will will need to spin again to kill the enemy very close to you own death, but Q or life steal on minions can save you. Spin from bushes work too. You will need arm penetration and a lot of atck speed runes too.
Late game, tryn can dominate botton lane in dominion. Stay atacking minions, stay at full HP with life steal, push the lane and let minions nulify the tower, so you are with all bars full, doing tons of damage, spin from minion spawmer into enemy and get a kill. work very well.

prospector blade, vampiric scepter, (zeal then )phanton dancer and (bf sword then)infinite edge are the key itens


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

09-14-2012

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Originally Posted by WaterD103 View Post
FDru, that seems to imply that in SR Trynd, fiora, ad yi and ad sion are playable....
Or TT.


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lbgsloan

Senior Member

09-14-2012

Large part of the problem with ADCs on Dominion IMO is that ADC itemization sucks even worse than AP. Big damage ADC items require that insane barrier to entry called the BF sword, and are all expensive and provide zero survivability or utility beyond sustain via lifesteal and some movespeed. Meanwhile pretty much all bruiser items provide other useful stats instead of just pure damage.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

09-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbgsloan View Post
Large part of the problem with ADCs on Dominion IMO is that ADC itemization sucks even worse than AP. Big damage ADC items require that insane barrier to entry called the BF sword, and are all expensive and provide zero survivability or utility beyond sustain via lifesteal and some movespeed. Meanwhile pretty much all bruiser items provide other useful stats instead of just pure damage.
I agree. Since I need to be a slippery as possible, I almost always need a Phantom Dancer, my Blackforge Sword item, and lifesteal all at once; of course that's impossible. But I still feel that having a bodyguard helps. ADCs work in my games because I am willing to pick the tank and protect them.

As for the idea to farm them up on bottom, it seems that everybody who has suggested this is necessary has also admitted that it doesn't work. Assassins will not let ADCs lane. If you need your ADC to have money, do what you used to do on SR: pull punches to let him take the kills. And for goodness' sake, pay attention to his safety!