Why do people hate Lux Support?

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Apollinarius

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
So I checked the damage between Lux and Lulu and I was right. Lulu does more burst than Lux when both are supports in addition to having a w that stops auto-attacking (potent vs ad carries).

Here is the skill comparsions from Mobafire as the source.

lux passive: 10 + (10 x lvl) only works after a spell/ doesn't stack
lulu passive: 15 + 9 per 2 lvls works each auto-attack

Lux q; 60/ 110/ 160/ 210/ 260 .7 ap ratio/ cd 15/14/12/13/11/
Lulu q: 80/ 125/ 170/ 215/ 260 .5 ap ratio/ cd 7 seconds

Lux e: 60/ 105/ 150/ 195/ 240 .6 ap ratio/ cd 10 seconds
Lulu e: 60/ 105/ 150/ 195/ 240 .6 ap ratio/ cd 10 seconds

So lets assume goddess lux catches someone with her q and she efficiently uses her skills. This is her damage at lvl 3 assuming she put 2 points into q and 1 into e
q: 110 dmg
auto-attack: ~45
passive: 30 dmg
e: 60 dmg
auto-attack: ~45
passive: 30 dmg
auto-attack: ~45

Lux: So that is 365 damage and she can't pop her passive again till 10 seconds later

Now lets look at lulu in the same instance. Lvl 3, 2 points into q and 1 into e.

q: 125 dmg
auto-attack: ~45
passive: 24 dmg
e: 60 dmg
auto-attack: ~45
passive: 24 dmg
auto-attack: ~45
passive: 24 dmg

Lulu: So that is 392 damage, except Lulu passive continues to activate for each auto-attack thereafter (lux's does not) and Lulu's main damage spell is up again in 7 seconds whereas Lux will have to wait 3-5 more seconds to use any of her spells again and also will have no passive until then as well.

Lets keep going through this fight as we figure that Lulu and Lux can auto-attack once every ~1.5 seconds with a speed of .6 or .7

So after that burst we have:

1 second
Lux: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu passive: 24 dmg
2 second
3 second
Lux: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu passive: 24 dmg
4 second
5 second
Lux: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu passive: 24 dmg
6 second
7second
Lux: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu passive: 24 dmg
Lulu q: 125 dmg
8 second
9 second
Lux: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu: autos: ~45 dmg
Lulu passive: 24 dmg
10 second
Only if Lux went 2 into e: 105 dmg, otherwise 60 dmg
Lulu e: 60 dmg


So that is:
Lux: 315 dmg 10 seconds after
Lulu: 530 dmg 10 seconds after

Now lets add the initial burst to the auto-attack fest that went on while waiting on cooldowns:

Lux: 365 + 315 = 680 total damage
Lulu: 392 + 530 = 922 total damage



Sorry but Lux loses to Lulu in lvl 3 fight as far as killing potential goes.
You do not play lux for killing potential. You play her for ranged skillshots that are easy to dodge. Lux has to poke but Lulu, you will notice can poke just as well.
Big difference between these two champs? Lux CANNOT commit to a fight until she has slowly poked the ad carry little by little.
Lulu can poke away just the same but can ALSO commit to a fight whenever she feels like it.
Note lulu q range is 925 and lux q range is 1000 BUT Lulu can even extend her range by placing e on something and then shooting from there. Lux e range is 1100, but Lulu potential combo range is 925 + 625 = 1550
Remember that we haven't even compared the w skills of the two which are utility skills Lulu's being able to stop auto-attacking and thus lifesteal too for 1.5 seconds.

Btw, at lvl 6 lulu's r gives the same amount of health lux's r does in dmg. Lux lvl 6 r damage is 300 while Lulu gives 300 health. However, Lulu also knocks up thus interrupting auto-attacks with R. At lvl 6 with lanes that didn't try to kill each other the carries will most likely have a bf sword already and can do about 300 damage with 2 auto-attacks. Lulu negates Lux damage and at the same time gives her carry a window to get in 1-2 more auto-attacks. This makes support Lulu even beat support Lux's damage with R considered. Note that if Lux support lane tried to fight and kill Lulu support lane before lvl 6, Lulu lane should have won because as pointed out here, she does more damage.



tl;dr Lulu beats Lux in pretty much everyway if you are looking at being aggressive and not passive
I've never played Lulu (in any form) but I can tell you that Lux's passive is a great harass tool, her E is awesome for zoning and setting up kills and her Q is the best skill in the game (beats Morg's Q because it can't be blocked so easily and has much faster projectile speed).

Team shield is probably the most overpowered way to spend 60 mana in the history of LoL.

You seem to forget that Lulu's passive can't hit past minions. Lux's Q sets up an easy kill for your ad carry. I don't know why you're suggesting the support solos an ad carry. You are also living in some funny fantasy land where support Lux isn't maxing W first. Lux's shield beats every other shield in the game for a sustained fight because it blocks twice, shields both Lux and all her allies, and is incredibly mana effective.

Lux's ultimate late game is a lane clearing tool or initiator.

I recognize that Lulu has a strong kit, especially with that ultimate, but she is so easy to play around once you realize how to get around that ultimate (make her blow the long CD outside of team fight or don't over-commit on one guy until the ultimate is used.).


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FrozenXylaphone

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09-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollinarius View Post
I've never played Lulu (in any form) but I can tell you that Lux's passive is a great harass tool, her E is awesome for zoning and setting up kills and her Q is the best skill in the game (beats Morg's Q because it can't be blocked so easily and has much faster projectile speed).

Team shield is probably the most overpowered way to spend 60 mana in the history of LoL.

You seem to forget that Lulu's passive can't hit past minions. Lux's Q sets up an easy kill for your ad carry. I don't know why you're suggesting the support solos an ad carry. You are also living in some funny fantasy land where support Lux isn't maxing W first. Lux's shield beats every other shield in the game for a sustained fight because it blocks twice, shields both Lux and all her allies, and is incredibly mana effective.

Lux's ultimate late game is a lane clearing tool or initiator.

I recognize that Lulu has a strong kit, especially with that ultimate, but she is so easy to play around once you realize how to get around that ultimate (make her blow the long CD outside of team fight or don't over-commit on one guy until the ultimate is used.).
What do you mean by: You seem to forget that Lulu's passive can't hit past minions.


Lulu passive is an auto-attack proc. It hits whatever she auto-attacks, including minions.
If you are talking about Lulu's 925 range q, it does actually go through minions and can hit as many targets as applicable.
She can also put her shield on an allied or enemy minion and her q will shoot from that source boosting its range to a possible 1550


You are also living in some funny fantasy land where support Lux isn't maxing W first. Lux's shield beats every other shield in the game for a sustained fight because it blocks twice, shields both Lux and all her allies, and is incredibly mana effective.

Most people in this thread suggested Lux did great damage and my guess is they would not max the shield as they picked her for her damage.

So you are saying, you pick Lux support to play extra passive and wait for your carry to be attacked then shield them? Because if you max sheild, you will not be doing much poke damage at all. And infact, in the case of fighting Lulu, she would just turn your shielded carry into a squirrel and now the only one doing anything is a lux auto-attacking which doesn't do much of anything. Or if in the case of my example and she maximizes her damage, that shield will burn with the blink of an eye.


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Apollinarius

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
Have you considered her damage output? If you like her, that is fine, but calling her great doesn't add up with facts. Do you think my analysis of Lulu vs. Lux is wrong? Show me where I made a mistake if so.
If not, you can see that not only do other supports like Lulu offer more overall damage, but they also prevent enemy ad carries from attacking which is HUGE late game when enemy ad carries do upwards 1000 dmg per auto-attack. Lux cannot stop them from auto-attacking.

Analysis is at top of this page btw.
I responded to your analysis.

The Whimsy CC is really good, especially late game when you're trying to catch one guy out. I don't deny that.

On the other hand, Lux's shield is just so good. Seriously. Lux can win team fights by just throwing out a shield at the right moment. Light binding gives amazing pick potential at a great range. This is especially worth noting with the current Ezreal/Graves/Corki meta because when a max range binding hits, your ADC dives using his gap closer and unloads hard with all of his burst. The E is a very nice skill when you want to zone the enemy team from their tower. When your jungler emerges from the bushes, throw your E between the enemy team and tower, and your gank is almost assured to work.

It is a matter of preference. I've never played Lulu, and have no intention to. I don't like her for aesthetic reasons. But I've played a lot of Taric/Blitz/Sona/Janna/Ali support and Lux works just as well as if not better than the above. Sustained damage on a support is really not very useful. Lockdown CC is amazing. Burst is nice early on, but falls of past level 5 anyway. Shields and heals are comparable in power, but give them in different ways. Shields are better for stopping burst, heals are better between fights.


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Gibgezr

Senior Member

09-13-2012

The biggest trick to playing Lux support is to constantly using your ult as harrass/early in a fight, instead of using it to get kills; played that way, she is scary as heck, and you can auto-win the laning phase from level 6 on.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollinarius View Post
I've never played Lulu (in any form) but I can tell you that Lux's passive is a great harass tool, her E is awesome for zoning and setting up kills and her Q is the best skill in the game (beats Morg's Q because it can't be blocked so easily and has much faster projectile speed).
Lulu's passive is a better harass. Not only can you use it on every AA, but it doesn't require any setup, not does it cost her mana.

Morgana and Lux actually have exactly the same projectile speed on their Qs. Morgana's Q has 2 Teemos longer range, though, which gives the illusion that it's moving slower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollinarius View Post
Team shield is probably the most overpowered way to spend 60 mana in the history of LoL.
Except Support Lux doesn't build AP and you probably won't hit everyone. It's good damage mitigation under ideal circumstances, but circumstances are rarely idea.

And in any case, AP Lux's shield is substantially better in a teamfight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollinarius View Post
Lux's shield beats every other shield in the game for a sustained fight because it blocks twice, shields both Lux and all her allies, and is incredibly mana effective.
Janna and Lulu also use their shields to block harass, which they can do because theirs are instacast. In an all-out 2v2 brawl, Lux' can potentially (under ideal circumstances, if you hit with it) mitigate more damage, but she and her carry are going to start with less health because they've been less able to deal with poke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollinarius View Post
Lux's ultimate late game is a lane clearing tool or initiator.
It's sub-par initiation even during midgame, and by lategame its damage is totally ignorable. Lulu's ult is a better example of a good late-game support's initiation ult.

As for lane-clearing: no. Even AP Lux has difficulty clearing whole waves with her ult until she has some serious AP built.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollinarius View Post
I recognize that Lulu has a strong kit, especially with that ultimate, but she is so easy to play around once you realize how to get around that ultimate (make her blow the long CD outside of team fight or don't over-commit on one guy until the ultimate is used.).
Actually, Lulu's ult is on a very low cooldown (48 seconds with 40% CDR, which every support wants). She can't use it in a jungle skirmish and then an immediate teamfight, but she'll have it up every time she comes back to lane and whenever there's a big teamfight.


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Apollinarius

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenXylaphone View Post
What do you mean by: You seem to forget that Lulu's passive can't hit past minions.


Lulu passive is an auto-attack proc. It hits whatever she auto-attacks, including minions.
If you are talking about Lulu's 925 range q, it does actually go through minions and can hit as many targets as applicable.
She can also put her shield on an allied or enemy minion and her q will shoot from that source boosting its range to a possible 1550


You are also living in some funny fantasy land where support Lux isn't maxing W first. Lux's shield beats every other shield in the game for a sustained fight because it blocks twice, shields both Lux and all her allies, and is incredibly mana effective.

Most people in this thread suggested Lux did great damage and my guess is they would not max the shield as they picked her for her damage.

So you are saying, you pick Lux support to play extra passive and wait for your carry to be attacked then shield them? Because if you max sheild, you will not be doing much poke damage at all. And infact, in the case of fighting Lulu, she would just turn your shielded carry into a squirrel and now the only one doing anything is a lux auto-attacking which doesn't do much of anything. Or if in the case of my example and she maximizes her damage, that shield will burn with the blink of an eye.
Minions block Pix's attack, right?

Lux's skills have decent rank 1 values, and with the passive, the total damage is comparable to if you leveled the skill up.

The normal sequence of events in lane is the following:
  • Carries are last hitting minions while staying behind them to be safe from skillshots. Supports are walking around trying to get a good angle or hiding in bushes.
  • One of the carries makes a misstep - either walks too close to the other ADC or exposes himself to a skillshot. If the ADC making a mistake is yours, you shield him and throw your E on top of the enemy ADC for the slow. If it's the enemy, you throw your Q and autoattack him. If your ADC follows up on your initiation, you W him and throw your E behind the enemy ADC so his escape is impeded.

Supports can very rarely do "poke" damage because they are easily CCd, focused and killed if they try to get in range. Those that can do it from very long range (Nidalee, Janna, Lux) have easily dodgeable skillshots that won't normally land on anyone at long range.

Other supports can help their AD carry in the same way. Sona pops Q-E, Blitz runs in with Power fist, Ali does W-Q, Taric does E-W. Lulu hits her Q and then autos, waiting for a good chance to cast her next spell, either to shield her ally, damage the enemy, ghost her ally or critter the enemy.

Those are all valid plays. How effective each one is depends on the situation, the enemy adc and support, but most of all it depends on the skill of a player.

Lux landing her Q is just about the deadliest thing that a support can do, especially if it's the 2s snare, not the 1s one. The E slow is very effective at stopping escapes or chases because it is in effect for so long, and it is on everyone who is trying to chase/escape.

I am not trying to say that Lux is the only good support. Far from it. What I am saying is that Lux isn't outclassed by other supports, and has very significant advantages in some matchups.


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FrozenXylaphone

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Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollinarius View Post
Minions block Pix's attack, right?

Lux's skills have decent rank 1 values, and with the passive, the total damage is comparable to if you leveled the skill up.

The normal sequence of events in lane is the following:
  • Carries are last hitting minions while staying behind them to be safe from skillshots. Supports are walking around trying to get a good angle or hiding in bushes.
  • One of the carries makes a misstep - either walks too close to the other ADC or exposes himself to a skillshot. If the ADC making a mistake is yours, you shield him and throw your E on top of the enemy ADC for the slow. If it's the enemy, you throw your Q and autoattack him. If your ADC follows up on your initiation, you W him and throw your E behind the enemy ADC so his escape is impeded.

Supports can very rarely do "poke" damage because they are easily CCd, focused and killed if they try to get in range. Those that can do it from very long range (Nidalee, Janna, Lux) have easily dodgeable skillshots that won't normally land on anyone at long range.

Other supports can help their AD carry in the same way. Sona pops Q-E, Blitz runs in with Power fist, Ali does W-Q, Taric does E-W. Lulu hits her Q and then autos, waiting for a good chance to cast her next spell, either to shield her ally, damage the enemy, ghost her ally or critter the enemy.

Those are all valid plays. How effective each one is depends on the situation, the enemy adc and support, but most of all it depends on the skill of a player.

Lux landing her Q is just about the deadliest thing that a support can do, especially if it's the 2s snare, not the 1s one. The E slow is very effective at stopping escapes or chases because it is in effect for so long, and it is on everyone who is trying to chase/escape.

I am not trying to say that Lux is the only good support. Far from it. What I am saying is that Lux isn't outclassed by other supports, and has very significant advantages in some matchups.
The point of my analysis was not to compare Lux to Lulu, but disprove the idea proposed in this thread that Lux is viable because she brings great damage to the table. She does not.

Now, if she doesn't bring great damage what does she bring? Her cc is actually worse than most supports cc. She only snares. They (lux support lane) cannot go in if they catch the enemy ADC with this because they (enemy laners) can still auto-attack. Whereas a multitude of other supports outright stop the ADC from doing much damage. Blitz for example.
So lux really has to poke, poke and then if the enemies got low, then you can go in otherwise you have to stay back perpetually. If you like that playstyle, play Lux. But you can't say her cc is the deadliest thing a support can do. Far from it. Blitz pull then knockup is infinitely more deadly. Leona stun then stun again is also. Infact, Lulu q, e then w is also worse as well.

Lulu as an example showed that other supports can go in whenever they want. Lulu's side would win the fight and to top it off, she can stop auto-attacks if a fight broke out in bot.
The only time Lux side could is if they got lucky with the skillshots BUT Lulu side can also get just as lucky with the skillshots too, so that is not an edge Lux has. Maybe against, Taric, but not against most.

And them, the most important thing about auto-attack stopping is that late game, that is the best thing a support can have as well. Lux lategame can only snare and give a decent shield. Her damage then is not good either. Other supports can stop 1000 damage auto's for a few seconds.


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zellvantes View Post
I main as a Lux Support in ranked, and I've been receiving a lot of comments, saying Lux Support is a terrible pick. But I don't understand.

Lux has a 2 second snare, an AoE Slow that grants VISION, a shield that can refresh twice, and an ult to help with snagging runaways.

The only thing she doesn't have is heal.

So why the hate? I don't understand.
Oh don't take it the wrong way. I just hate Lux as a champion.


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AlyCat103

Senior Member

09-13-2012

I play support lux a lot on a smurf I have (lower elo normals ~lv 28ish). It's been pretty good for me.

drawbacks to playing her support is when you are forced to play passively (based on matchups, or they're just a head)
She's becomes a useless pick (imo) if you have to play passively, or defensively because your shield is hard to use to mitigate casual harass, and she doesn't provide strong enough peel.
Heaven forbid you have decent opponents that can dodge her skill shots - or an ad carry that does the same with her shield....lol

I always take q, e, then max w - ult at the begging of fights to get off as much damage as possible to as many targets you can (and not take kills).
Her q is great in lane because most supports (at the level I play her) will sit in the bush and take it to face time and time again - taking a lot of damage (if you can get passive, and your ad carry in on it).
Her sheild is really great - I find in lane its best used for more committed exchanges its not good for casual harass because of the delay (and a much higher chance your carry will try to dodge it :P).
Her e is a great for checking bushes (so useful) but it has a high cd and is a necessary damage output in lane if you go head to head and want to come out on top.
I always take exhaust - don't need cv (your not cleaning up kills) and your e gives vision (with in range) and you want to be able to win trades in lane.

I have a lot of fun playing her support - but I don't think I would player her on my reg account, unless against very specific lane matchups... and even then I would be hesitant because I may not be able to land her abilities against higher skilled opponents.


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FrozenXylaphone

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Senior Member

10-04-2012

bump Lux support played at world finals