Idea for Heimerdinger!!

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macdaddymikey3

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolnemesis View Post
The bonus attack thing on the turret looks like they want to make the turrets do more damage and be more effective in fights, without making them too much stronger as farming tools or in lane... it's kind of cool I think. Because they have that range and come out almost fully charged, and also get charged when he throws a grenade anywhere near them, it will be a lot harder for the enemy to just get out of range or blow them up before they do anything. It won't matter how squishy they are in a fight if they can get out a huge chunk of their damage right away, the shorter machine gun range is only a concern for heimer when he wants to keep turrets around somewhere farming... during any actual fight, they effectively have longer range than before, and he can still stand so that if you want to get close they will keep hitting you too.

This also lets them make changes that make his turrets less overpowering and less capable of defending themselves in lane without really sacrificing late-game power... It will make Heimer actually have to work to defend them more, and reward good turret placement more.
Very well said, I didn't think of it like that. I still don't know how to feel about the changes they listed to his rockets. So would they be a skill shot like a ahri Q or Morgana Q? Or a lock on skill like a nunu snowball? Or a drop on courser skill like laying a seed with Zyra?


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by macdaddymikey3 View Post
Very well said, I didn't think of it like that. I still don't know how to feel about the changes they listed to his rockets. So would they be a skill shot like a ahri Q or Morgana Q? Or a lock on skill like a nunu snowball? Or a drop on courser skill like laying a seed with Zyra?
Seems like it will be a smartcast like Karthus' Q, except the rockets will travel from a circle around heimerdinger to the point of impact in a kind of wide swarm, with individual rockets possibly getting blocked by stuff in the way. I'm not sure though, the wording is too vague there for me to envision exactly how it is going to look and work... the size of the circle and how they move while traveling is going to make a big difference I think, but it seems like the basic idea is to make it still be a skill that he can cast almost without thought, (while running for example) and that can still be blocked sometimes by minions or other enemy players like tanks, but he can aim it better so it won't veer off in the total wrong direction and hit things just because they happen to be close. In lane, it seems like this will make them dodgeable, but he can still lead you with them, and they probably will keep a very high travel speed... He will also be able to walk over a full minion line and shoot rockets at you now without having to worry about all the rockets going back and hitting the minions behind him, but then again without his regen passive he would actually have to worry about the minion damage.

Rocket damage will keep its nature where it will want to hit stuff closer to him more, but it will at least always go in the right DIRECTION and be kind of evenly spread out among targets hit, thanks to how multiple rocket hits scale down quickly... for example, if you aim it at a carry, and his teammates manage to take 7 rockets and he only takes 3... he still takes most of the damage he would have taken if you would have gotten him with all 10... (though he would still take a pretty good amount more if you DID get him with all 10). Basically, it makes him able to focus rockets on one target quite a bit better than he can now (as a kill ability in lane or against a runner for example), but they still keep a lot of their effectiveness when hitting multiple targets too (aiming an ult-rockets at their team for example).

It does seem like rockets would be a little weaker in the situation where you get to a teamfight late and a bunch of really low health enemies scatter or come at you from all different directions... with his current rockets he could get a triple kill or even better with his ult if the enemies are low enough, with his new ones he would have to pick a direction to shoot, though they wouldn't need to be nearly as low for him to finish them off. Then again, in that situation the new Heimer could just ult with grenade to cover a gigantic area around him with damage and kill them that way instead.


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macdaddymikey3

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolnemesis View Post
Seems like it will be a smartcast like Karthus' Q, except the rockets will travel from heimerdinger to the point of impact, with individual rockets possibly getting blocked by stuff in the way. I'm not sure though, the wording is too vague there for me to envision exactly how it is going to look and work... but it seems like the basic idea is to make it still be a skill that he can cast almost without thought, and that can be blocked sometimes by minions or other enemy players like tanks, but he can aim it better so it won't veer off in the total wrong direction. In lane, it seems like this will make them dodgeable (but he can still lead you with them, and they probably will keep a very high travel speed)

The damage will keep it's nature where it will want to hit champs closer to him more, but it will be kind of evenly spread out among targets hit, thanks to how multiple rocket hits scale down quickly... for example, if you aim it at a carry, and his teammates manage to take 7 rockets and he only takes 3... he still takes most of the damage he would have taken if you would have gotten him with all 10... (though he would still take more if you DID get him with all 10) so it makes him able to focus rockets on one target better than he can now (as a kill ability in lane or against a runner for example), but they still keep a lot of effectiveness hitting multiple targets too (aiming an ult-rockets at their team for example).


Hmm. That would be pretty cool honestly I would like to see them be able to get blocked. I still think 10 rockets seem like a bit to much. Like that would be a pretty wide AoE spread on the rockets. 5 would just looks better and launch 10 with active ult. I dunno thought I would have to see it to get a better idea i guess. Still thanks for the info had some cool ideas.


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

09-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by macdaddymikey3 View Post
Hmm. That would be pretty cool honestly I would like to see them be able to get blocked. I still think 10 rockets seem like a bit to much. Like that would be a pretty wide AoE spread on the rockets. 5 would just looks better and launch 10 with active ult. I dunno thought I would have to see it to get a better idea i guess. Still thanks for the info had some cool ideas.
Yeah I think the idea with 10 is to make the damage a little more evenly distributed and less chunky so they could play more with the scaling numbers on multiple rocket hits, and so that missing a few rockets or getting them blocked won't be so devastating to the damage a target takes. I don't know how wide they will be though... it really could be any size, it's something I would need to see. bruisers, tanks and minions tend to block his rockets now too, just by being closer usually... now they will actually have to get in the way, like how they have to with nidalee's spear (though I think they want them to be harder to block/avoid than her spear; if the initial circle has any kind of size, most likely some will get through if blocked, or still get you if you try to dodge... although i imagine a giant Cho'gath would be pretty good at blocking them, and blowing a movement ability might let you totally avoid them).

Some math with the scaling there... 10 rockets = 100%+60%+24%+(20%*7) damage on one person or 324% of the base damage one rocket does, if 3 miss, they still take 264% of the base damage. The first 3 rockets already does 184% of base, so almost 2/3 of the damage from 10 is done with the first 3 rockets and about half just with 2. Lets say 3 enemies get hit by them, and they take 2,3, and 5 rockets... mr. 2 takes 160%, mr. 3 takes 184%, mr. 5 takes 224% of the base damage. As you can see it's still pretty evenly distributed, each enemy takes at least half the damage that they would take if they got hit with all 10, even the one that managed to avoid almost all the rockets, and the one who blocked half the rockets didn't actually block anywhere near half of all the damage the rockets put out.

With his active ult, he will be able to hit the entire team with an average of 6 rockets each, which is about 244% of his base damage from one rocket... If he hits one person with all 30... he ends up hitting them for about 724% of base, or a little over double what a normal rocket cast of 10 would do to them (this looks like it is gonna be nasty in lane at level 6, even if you can avoid a lot of the rockets that's still gonna hurt).


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