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Thoughts on CDR

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Autocthon

Senior Member

09-02-2012

So I've been thinking to myself about CDR (sometimes I think to others, long story) and I was thinking...

1) Why doesn't CDR function as a time multiplier letting each second "count" as longer? Wouldn't this be more effective than discrete cooldowns determined at time of cast? Additionally this would open avenues for new ways to utilize CDR (and make Soul Shroud more effective)

and

2) What do people think about item actives being affected by CDR. IMO it would be cool (though active effects might need to have longer base cooldowns to compensate)


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WonderBoy55

Senior Member

09-04-2012

I assume you are talking about Increased Refresh Rate, where instead of "An ability takes x% less time to cool down" you have "Abities refresh timer ticks x% faster"

These systems differ significantly, as refresh rate gives diminished returns while cdr does not. Going from 0 to 10% CDR on a 10 second cooldown gives 1 second, as does going from 10 to 20% and 20 to 30%

going from 0 to 10% RR gives .91 seconds, while going from 10-20% gives a reduced .76 seconds. While the reduction approaches 0 at infinite amounts of RR, it's very significant at low amounts, meaning having a little bit of RR is very punishing.

Even when adjusting the amount an item would give, you would need roughly 66.67% RR to have the same effect as 40% CDR.

Diminished returns make a stat unappealing, especially when applied so heavily from the beginning. As such, diminished returns are limited to %penetration (a rare stat) and movement speed (sort of, and only after hitting the soft caps of 415 and/or 490)

All of the numbers aside, many abilities aren't balanceable for such scaling,(i.e. Fiddle could have 100% uptime on his fear, albeit at roughly 266.67% RR)


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Autocthon

Senior Member

09-04-2012

Quote:
WonderBoy55:
I assume you are talking about Increased Refresh Rate, where instead of "An ability takes x% less time to cool down" you have "Abities refresh timer ticks x% faster"

These systems differ significantly, as refresh rate gives diminished returns while cdr does not. Going from 0 to 10% CDR on a 10 second cooldown gives 1 second, as does going from 10 to 20% and 20 to 30%

going from 0 to 10% RR gives .91 seconds, while going from 10-20% gives a reduced .76 seconds. While the reduction approaches 0 at infinite amounts of RR, it's very significant at low amounts, meaning having a little bit of RR is very punishing.

Even when adjusting the amount an item would give, you would need roughly 66.67% RR to have the same effect as 40% CDR.

Diminished returns make a stat unappealing, especially when applied so heavily from the beginning. As such, diminished returns are limited to %penetration (a rare stat) and movement speed (sort of, and only after hitting the soft caps of 415 and/or 490)

All of the numbers aside, many abilities aren't balanceable for such scaling,(i.e. Fiddle could have 100% uptime on his fear, albeit at roughly 266.67% RR)
You're assuming there would be no tuning for what is available. For instance, no item slot would give more than 15% CDR. That would allow for legitimate CDR values, with syupport items being favored for higher CDR values.

Also, it's the only feasible way to make a CDR aura worth anything.


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WonderBoy55

Senior Member

09-04-2012

Quote:
Autocthon:
You're assuming there would be no tuning for what is available. For instance, no item slot would give more than 15% CDR. That would allow for legitimate CDR values, with syupport items being favored for higher CDR values.

Also, it's the only feasible way to make a CDR aura worth anything.



I made no such assumption. The system didn't give diminished returns from individual sources like % an does dodge used to. It diminishes continuously based on total amount.

As for the aura, Soul Shroud is a very good item for the cost. The health it gives is immense and it goes nicely on niche bottom lanes like Ezreal/Taric. It is used a lot in Korea. The aura is more significant than you make it out to be. It's simply not popular because it isn't built from a gold per 10 item.


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67chrome

Senior Member

09-04-2012

Quote:
WonderBoy55:
I assume you are talking about Increased Refresh Rate, where instead of "An ability takes x% less time to cool down" you have "Abities refresh timer ticks x% faster"

These systems differ significantly, as refresh rate gives diminished returns while cdr does not. Going from 0 to 10% CDR on a 10 second cooldown gives 1 second, as does going from 10 to 20% and 20 to 30%

going from 0 to 10% RR gives .91 seconds, while going from 10-20% gives a reduced .76 seconds. While the reduction approaches 0 at infinite amounts of RR, it's very significant at low amounts, meaning having a little bit of RR is very punishing.

Even when adjusting the amount an item would give, you would need roughly 66.67% RR to have the same effect as 40% CDR.

Diminished returns make a stat unappealing, especially when applied so heavily from the beginning. As such, diminished returns are limited to %penetration (a rare stat) and movement speed (sort of, and only after hitting the soft caps of 415 and/or 490)

All of the numbers aside, many abilities aren't balanceable for such scaling,(i.e. Fiddle could have 100% uptime on his fear, albeit at roughly 266.67% RR)


That's cool and all, but CDR is the only attribute that stacks like that and gets more powerful the more you have (until you reach the cap anyways), all the rest of the attributes in the game scale linearly, which more or less means diminished returns if you invest in a ton of it. If CDR was like everything else that wouldn't suddenly make it "unapealing", I'd imagine it could open the way for at least some CDR to make it into viable items for AD based champions as well, and become a more common attribute in general.

Consider 1% CDR will increase your DPS by 1% from a base of 0 CDR, were it will increase your DPS by 50% from a base of 98% CDR or by infinity (barring casting times) at a base of 99% CDR. Nothing else stacks like that, so I fail to see why CDR not stacking in this way anymore would be a problem.

I don't get why you're saying having a little bit of Refresh Rate at low levels is both significant and punishing either, if it's significant wouldn't it be rewarding? And if it's less effective than how CDR currently stacks wouldn't it be less punishing to those on the receiving side?


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WonderBoy55

Senior Member

09-05-2012

Quote:
67chrome:
That's cool and all, but CDR is the only attribute that stacks like that and gets more powerful the more you have (until you reach the cap anyways), all the rest of the attributes in the game scale linearly, which more or less means diminished returns if you invest in a ton of it. If CDR was like everything else that wouldn't suddenly make it "unapealing", I'd imagine it could open the way for at least some CDR to make it into viable items for AD based champions as well, and become a more common attribute in general.

Consider 1% CDR will increase your DPS by 1% from a base of 0 CDR, were it will increase your DPS by 50% from a base of 98% CDR or by infinity (barring casting times) at a base of 99% CDR. Nothing else stacks like that, so I fail to see why CDR not stacking in this way anymore would be a problem.

I don't get why you're saying having a little bit of Refresh Rate at low levels is both significant and punishing either, if it's significant wouldn't it be rewarding? And if it's less effective than how CDR currently stacks wouldn't it be less punishing to those on the receiving side?


I believe you’ve misunderstood my post. When I said:

Quote:
“While the reduction approaches 0 at infinite amounts of RR, it’s very significant at low amounts, meaning having a little bit of RR is very punishing.”


“it’s” refers to the reduction from getting more RR, not the RR itself.

Consider the following case, where we buy Refresh Rate in increments of 10 for a 10 second base cooldown:

Going from 0-10% gives .91 seconds off a cooldown. Going from 10-20% gives more .76 seconds, this is ~83.5% of the effect given from purchasing the same amount of RR. Going from 20%-30% will only yield .64 more seconds off, ~84.2% of what we’d gotten last time.

Continuing on further, 80% to 90% gives .3 more seconds, and from 90% to 100% moves us from 4.74 to 5 seconds off, giving us only .26 seconds for the same amount of RR which had given us a full .91 seconds earlier, but ~86.67% of what we’d gotten last step.

Cooldown Reduction in it’s current implementation does scale linearly in terms of “Time off Cooldown”. Going from 0% to 10% CDR gives 1 second off a 10 second base cooldown. Going from 10% to 20% CDR gives 1 second more off of the same cooldown, giving 100% of what was gained on the last step.

In terms of “DPS” or “Casts per Second”, CDR does approach infinity at 100%. Refresh Rate increases “Casts per Second” linearly by 1 for every 100% RR. So in these terms, Refresh Rate doesn’t give diminished returns while CDR gives increased returns. However, CDR does not begin increasing dramatically (by dramatically I mean doubling after 10%) until 80% CDR is reached, hence why the cap is set well below that at 40%. Even a less dramatic metric of doubling after 20% doesn’t occur until 60% CDR.

Having it scale well with itself does sound like a broken concept at first, but consider that other stats scale well with one another. AD, AS, %CC, %CD, Flat ArPen, %ARPen and %Lifesteal all scale together for basic attacks. Similarly, AP, CDR, Flat MPen and %MPen scale for many damage dealing abilities. Health scales up with both Armor and Magic Resist, though AR and MR do not benefit one another. Depending on the champion kit, other stats can stack together as well, such as Health and Attack speed on Shen, Ability Power and Attack Speed on Teemo and Kayle, or AD and CDR on Riven and Renekton. There are even other stats that multiply with themselves, such as AP with the Archmage mastery or Rabadon’s passive, as well as AD with Riven’s Ultimate

For more details please see: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Stacking

As for CDR being more “punishing” to the receiver, all stats are punishing to the receiving side, as they give you an advantage. That is the reason they are purchased.

And as far as CDR for AD based champs go, the current itemization is limited to prevent AD Carries from wanting CDR, as they are not balanced around having much or any of it.

On the whole, I do agree that a hardcap system isn’t fun, as it wastes potential for getting a lot of it. Perhaps a softcap system where diminished returns kick in after some amount of CDR would be less limiting. That way when you have 40% CDR + Blue Buff you still benefit from the extra CDR, though not as much.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

09-05-2012

Cooldown reduction would probably scale too poorly if it was a rate increase, especially considering that there are not enough and will not be powerful enough sources to keep it strong on tanks and supports who need it. This is one of the few cases where the stat is better balanced with a hard-cap system.
At the same time, Cooldown reduction just has such a profound effect on the utility of champions that many champions are balanced around the amount of cdr that they have access to. If they get any less effective cdr from those items or need to build more cdr items to get their balanced amounts of cooldown reduction, then those champions would quickly become underpowered.

Besides, as Wonderboy said earlier, the other stats usually scale with something else. The utility aspects of CDR only scale with CDR.


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67chrome

Senior Member

09-10-2012

Quote:
WonderBoy55:

“it’s” refers to the reduction from getting more RR, not the RR itself.


I still don't see that as being punishing in any way shape or form. That just comes down to how you numerically represent the stat - armor and magic resistance's % damage reduction initially seem to offer diminishing returns as well, and so will any attack-speed buffs you have to code with inverse values.

Quote:
WonderBoy55:
In terms of “DPS” or “Casts per Second”, CDR does approach infinity at 100%. Refresh Rate increases “Casts per Second” linearly by 1 for every 100% RR. So in these terms, Refresh Rate doesn’t give diminished returns while CDR gives increased returns. However, CDR does not begin increasing dramatically (by dramatically I mean doubling after 10%) until 80% CDR is reached, hence why the cap is set well below that at 40%. Even a less dramatic metric of doubling after 20% doesn’t occur until 60% CDR.


Needing to gain massive bonuses isn't a requirement for exponential growth, one needs 66.7% attack speed to gain the same consistent damage output as 40% CDR, that seems pretty significant to me.

I can see the down-time being more akin to the current form of CDR for most Ultimates as no amount of CDR will allow them to be utilized twice in the same engagement, but for a wide range of Q, W, and E skills it allows them to be used more similarly to attack speed.

Quote:
WonderBoy55:
Having it scale well with itself does sound like a broken concept at first, but consider that other stats scale well with one another. AD, AS, %CC, %CD, Flat ArPen, %ARPen and %Lifesteal all scale together for basic attacks. Similarly, AP, CDR, Flat MPen and %MPen scale for many damage dealing abilities. Health scales up with both Armor and Magic Resist, though AR and MR do not benefit one another. Depending on the champion kit, other stats can stack together as well, such as Health and Attack speed on Shen, Ability Power and Attack Speed on Teemo and Kayle, or AD and CDR on Riven and Renekton. There are even other stats that multiply with themselves, such as AP with the Archmage mastery or Rabadon’s passive, as well as AD with Riven’s Ultimate


The fact you included CDR as one of the stats that scales with other stats undermines that argument by a fair margin, especially considering all the things you listed don't stack with themselves, simply another attribute. I'm aware complementary attributes stack multiplicativly with each other, but CDR is the only thing that stacks multiplicativly with itself in it's current form.

Quote:
WonderBoy55:
And as far as CDR for AD based champs go, the current itemization is limited to prevent AD Carries from wanting CDR, as they are not balanced around having much or any of it.


I've heard this argument over and over again and don't really see the underlying reason. The only AD champions I could see abuse this already have Youmuu's ghostblade to pick from, as AD bruisers tend to be the AD casters. ADCs have little to gain from CDR, especially when their cast animation interferes with their attack animations.

The only time that doesn't happen is when they use an attack-speed steroid. In the lanning phase were abilities allow them to poke, yes, this could help, but they can build Brutalizer there and most have an abysmal enough mana pool and cooldowns spread out long enough CDR has little effect. While I agree CDR is universally beneficial on everyone, it seems to be less beneficial than it's current cost indicates on ADCs. If loosing out on 50% attack speed and 20% movement speed for a minimal 4 seconds (while still getting it for 4 seconds) is enough for ADCs to shy away from an item that otherwise offers a solid chunk of damage, critical strike chance, and armor penetration I don't see how any item were CDR isn't free would be heavily abused. Beyond that most ADCs with a solid burst have exclusive AP ratios with such abilities, so they still need to weigh the effects of using the ability or just utilizing auto-attacks.

Quote:
axesandspears:
Cooldown reduction would probably scale too poorly if it was a rate increase, especially considering that there are not enough and will not be powerful enough sources to keep it strong on tanks and supports who need it. This is one of the few cases where the stat is better balanced with a hard-cap system.


As the thread proposes changing the way the attribute works having to re-balance items to give a little more is clearly a side-effect of the change. A simple change such as modifying CDR to be a non-unique bonus (similar to how attack speed is not unique) would go a long way to allow it to get up to 66.7% RR that 40% CDR more or less provides though, supports could run with 2 Kindlegems right away as such an item has 2 upgrade paths. But every change has it's own problems.

Quote:
axesandspears:
At the same time, Cooldown reduction just has such a profound effect on the utility of champions that many champions are balanced around the amount of cdr that they have access to. If they get any less effective cdr from those items or need to build more cdr items to get their balanced amounts of cooldown reduction, then those champions would quickly become underpowered.


Most of the champions with ample access to CDR tend to have a bigger impact on win rates though, Ezreal is one of the few ADCs that can go AP and plan on carrying a team, and heavy utility based champions such as Malphite and Fiddelsticks tend to do much better than their counterparts with more focus on damage and less on utility. Not to mention a lot of champions that initially seem like CDR would be cool have an automatic re-set or multiple casts built into their kit. Of course, there are exceptions in utility being #1, most notably Karma.

Quote:
axesandspears:
Besides, as Wonderboy said earlier, the other stats usually scale with something else. The utility aspects of CDR only scale with CDR.


If you're going to say every attribute scales with every attribute utility aspects scale with other aspects as well.

CC stacks with your entire teams DPS and/or mobility.
Friendly boosts to allied defenses stack with complementary defenses.
Friendly boosts to allied offense stacks with complementary offensive stats.
Even boosts to movement speed will stack with allied mobility.


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WonderBoy55

Senior Member

10-10-2012

I get where you're coming from and your arguments are sound. A Refresh Rate system would make casts per second scale linearly. I also agree that even though AD Carries aren't balanced around CDR, this change wouldn't hurt that.

Here's a summation of my main points on each system:
CDR:
-Scales linearly in terms of how much time you get off each spell
-Scales multiplicatively with itself in terms of Casts per Second
-is capped at a fare breaking point to prevent it from scaling out of control
-cap punishes stacking to much, making for an unrewarding feeling

RR:
-Scales linearly in terms of Casts per Second, but diminishes in terms of time off a cooldown
-uncapped so it's always rewarding to purchase
-lack of cap could lead to abusive cases

Honestly neither are bad systems, but since RR is the only one with an abuse case, i feel like it is a more viable option.

The only reason i would be against this is the possibility of perma-CC from champions stacking this.


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Pyr0n1c

Senior Member

10-10-2012

It's called Cooldown Reduction not Cast Time Reduction?


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