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Smiteless Jungle.

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ragnaraq

Senior Member

09-02-2012

Quote:
ChodusMinimus:
This is about the early game.
Warwick has too much sustain for anyone to be a threat to him in the jungle, so he can readily go and rape them.
I also carry Exhaust in games with friends, so that means he's dead. Just. Dead. Until late game, WW will shut down Tryndamere hard. Even assuming a 1v1 in his jungle at level 2 at red buff, WW will win.
AND if I happen to have Exhaust, I'll probably have a friend playing top... Who will come with me and kill you.
Trynd's clear speed is meh, Fiora's is meh, Yi's is meh, and they all have poor sustain. While Warwick's clear speed is on par with theirs, his sustain is better than any other jungler except maybe Nunu.
All of the junglers you mention all have poor ganks. Trynd has a situational slow, Yi has Alpha Strike, Fiora has a double gap-closer... Pre-6...
Warwick, Nocturne, and Udyr will all defeat them for various reasons.


That all depends on WHO is playing those champs. Any champ you use can be epic if you use them right. Especially including build.


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Treza

Senior Member

09-02-2012

Quote:
NineTailedFiend:
Im ~very~ tempted to fix that right now. Thinking Im gonna do 10 matches as smite-less Tryndamere and let the scores show it all. Sleep deprivation or not, I wanna prove some points the hard way. XD


lets say you destroy the enemy team in 10 games consecutively.. all it would prove is that bad teams exist. every good jungler who has ever jungled ever since ever has taken smite for the sole purpose to level faster

dont be the guy who walks into the lane level 4 at 8 minutes into the game for a gank and ends up giving up a double kill. thats what will happen if you jungle without smite.. maybe not every time, but against a competent team it will happen

what can you do when at 7 minutes into the game the enemy top lane and jungler walk into your jungle and take your red from you? you gonna chase them down while youre under leveled? well.. you dont really need to worry about these things against amateur or bad players.. but at any level of real competition these things are going to happen and they will happen frequently, and you wont be able to stop it

jungling without smite is just a poor decision, and no match history you can show or achieve will change that


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Cool Blue Rocks

Member

09-02-2012

Without smite you'll probably give first blood at around 4:30 when you are about to kill your red (while you are killing it, a jungler comes and kills you). Tryn has terrible sustain and will be really low health. You'll lose double buffs from that and it'll just be all bad. Then at around 7:20 (7:10-7:30) prepare to get your blue stolen.


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Sam Is Whoa

Senior Member

09-02-2012

Quote:
ChodusMinimus:
Warwick ganks are some of the strongest in the game, though. It isn't about the damage, it's about the unCleansable, unmitigated 1.8 second suppress. It's brainless and guaranteed, except against GP.
Goddamn oranges.
Yi, Fiora, and Trynd don't get strong ganks. If you pull Undying Rage and dive, you'll probably die to the turret. Fiora's ult is fairly decent, but gets her stuck under the turret as well, unless she initiates with it, which is stupid in itself. Yi is only good when fed, and junglers rarely get fed, and Yi's early game isn't good enough to get fed... Carry junglers have their perks, but relying on teammates and having to be squishy and in the middle of the fight overall weakens the team.
PLUS he gives his allies a free Recurve Bow. His post-6 ganks destroy, slightly lackluster before... Hence Exhaust.
Even in premades, I've never gotten babysat my whole way through the jungle. If I go on the offensive and counter-jungle, top or mid will come and help me from time to time, but they don't just stalk me on through.
Smiteless might work from time to time, but the problems are huge... it's why Smite is as prevalent as it is.


The last thing im doing is debating whether WW is a good jungler. He is top tier but pre 6 he has his problems like anyone else. To me it sounds like your saying WW is end all be all to junglers and he cant get outplayed by a carry jungler. Thats not the case. I am not suggesting you get babysat but pre 6 you better know you have help from your lanes if you get spotted.

I played jungle caitlyn alot and as a jungle carry lane ganking and picking up xp and cs in vacant lanes is where you catch up. Its not ideal and can be countered but taking your time out to counter jungle and possibly get caught leaves your lanes without help through lane phase.

Smite is excellent and should be used. However jungling without smite is possible and can benefit your team more later on. It can free up your carry to take heal or ignite. I wouldnt recommend it but also wouldnt rage at someone for not taking it unless they replace it with revive or surge.


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ChodusMinimus

Member

09-02-2012

Quote:
Sam Is Whoa:


I played jungle caitlyn alot


Suddenly zero credibility.
I'm arguing against carry jungles and smiteless jungle because it's in no way optimal.
Warwick isn't. I've had quite a few people rage at me for picking him because "he's ****ty jungle noob play someone who works."
I think that it's a deep-seeded rage at getting solo-queued with people who do this kind of **** and end up losing the game. They say it's getting to homogenized, but in solo queue, I try to pick safer picks for safer wins.
Cheese tactics don't always work... If they did, I might go into a premade with all Smite and take the first tower at 2:10 or less.


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Cha Shin Hoon

Senior Recruiter

09-02-2012

I think only Udyr may be able to pull off a smiteless jungle while maintaining efficiency.


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Flagrock

Senior Member

09-02-2012

Quote:
NineTailedFiend:
Im ~very~ tempted to fix that right now. Thinking Im gonna do 10 matches as smite-less Tryndamere and let the scores show it all. Sleep deprivation or not, I wanna prove some points the hard way. XD

Playing normals and winning is not hard. I can go in a normal be afk for the whole game and still win. Go into ranked to prove anything about smiteless jungles.
Now, not having smite on a jungle is just plain bad. You are first giving up 10 gold every 70 seconds which is 1 gold per 7 seconds. Secondly, you're making your clear times slower meaning you get less gold there. Last but not least, unless you are Nunu baron and dragon can be stolen. Baron steals are game changers. I am just going to state have you EVER seen a pro jungler not have smite. Also, when the baron has been stolen with 5 people up on both sides, guess what, the baron team wins the team fight. Running smite is optimal. You CAN go without smite, but it just is slower and less effective. Fiddles, Nunu, and Shaco do not NEED smite, but if you read ANY guides from the MLG people (who are a LOT better than you and I) they say smite is a MUST have. So, yeah in the pub matches facing terrible people you can get away with that, but if you ever get 1500 ELO or higher, you will be laughed at and raped by ANY good jungler without smite. I'd even take you on and laugh as I steal your buffs and kill you on my junglers. I could even play the same jungler and with smite and the same skilled teams, the smite jungler will win 99 times out of 100. Play ranked before you start saying it's not bad. Being a pubstomper like trynd won't do anything when you play vs people with half a brain.


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futuresight23

Senior Member

09-02-2012

Reason I could see it working: Jungler assumes that it will be a duo lane top and gets lulled into a false sense of security.

Otherwise, a good team/jungler should be watching the minimap to see if anyone goes missing and be on their guard.


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Kreyni

Senior Member

09-02-2012

Quote:
NineTailedFiend:
That referring to me? I've been trying new things but tempted to return to my mains. Screwing around with Yi at solo top or having to pose as a specific undesirable role thanks to autolockers. x_x


TBH, you have 4 ranked matches and by jumping into ranked, I assume you're at least decent at all roles.

Also, I just wanted to say this.

Play 5 ranked games as smiteless Trynd or Yi and win at least 3 of them. If you're as good as you say, being a "carry jungler" should carry your team to victory. Also, in ranked, people are much better than normals.

-Level 1 invade, if they have a ward the enemy jungler can smite steal your first buff from over the wall. Forget the "let my team defend", they can have a ward without you realizing and hide from your team, and they'll have your red before you know it. Also, I doubt anyone at 1200 (Or so) ELO is going to stay till you finish your buff with no smite just because the enemy jungler MIGHT be there.

-Go for Baron? Steal over the wall. I think there's a spot where you can smite it. Otherwise flash smite works too, and if they have a gap-closer they can get out over the wall easily.

-Go for Dragon? Stolen.

I know that I'm restating points everyone else has made, but those are really big advantages smite has. If you still believe you are right, prove it.

Play 5 ranked games as a smiteless Tryndamere or Yi and win at least 3.


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Cool Blue Rocks

Member

09-02-2012

Quote:
Kreyni:
TBH, you have 4 ranked matches and by jumping into ranked, I assume you're at least decent at all roles.

Also, I just wanted to say this.

Play 5 ranked games as smiteless Trynd or Yi and win at least 3 of them. If you're as good as you say, being a "carry jungler" should carry your team to victory. Also, in ranked, people are much better than normals.

-Level 1 invade, if they have a ward the enemy jungler can smite steal your first buff from over the wall. Forget the "let my team defend", they can have a ward without you realizing and hide from your team, and they'll have your red before you know it. Also, I doubt anyone at 1200 (Or so) ELO is going to stay till you finish your buff with no smite just because the enemy jungler MIGHT be there.

-Go for Baron? Steal over the wall. I think there's a spot where you can smite it. Otherwise flash smite works too, and if they have a gap-closer they can get out over the wall easily.

-Go for Dragon? Stolen.

I know that I'm restating points everyone else has made, but those are really big advantages smite has. If you still believe you are right, prove it.

Play 5 ranked games as a smiteless Tryndamere or Yi and win at least 3.


Wouldn't have credibility unless you're at least bronze imo (so in the next 5 games 4 would be wins). Anyway, people in ranked are not better than people in normals. People just tend to try less in normals. There's a normal elo as well...