Can we force 'Draft-Mode'-only?

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VejiTehDestroyer

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Since Riot balances around SR, can we eliminate the blind pick for Dominions so we can weed out the OP champs that just faceroll every single game they're in?

How do we get Riot to make this change?


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A single hat

Senior Member

08-23-2012

it won't happen because its unfeasible and people don't want it.

Unfeasible:
Draft pick requires you have a certain number of champions in order to play. Making it draft only would exclude low level players, and so it probably will never happen.

Unwanted:
People play blind pick for reasons other than queue time. Its a great mode to try champs out without worrying about getting couterpicked or playing a game without your teammates losing it before the game begins. Also, for anyone that thinks that having everyone in the draft pool would lower queue times, let me be clear. It *would* lower queue times, but a similarly made blind pick pool would still have lower queue times because of how long draft takes to pick and ban. The "clock queue time" would be the same, but the time from entering queue to entering game would be higher for draft.


Lastly, you are going to have to prove your premise that the OP champs "just face roll every single game they're in" because I just don't see it. Having one on your team is an advantage for sure, but I think that the power of a single op champ to strap a team to their back is greatly exaggerated.


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Tharaxis Minar

Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by A single hat View Post

Lastly, you are going to have to prove your premise that the OP champs "just face roll every single game they're in" because I just don't see it. Having one on your team is an advantage for sure, but I think that the power of a single op champ to strap a team to their back is greatly exaggerated.

ive got to agree with this comment simply because if you goto lolmatches or any of the stat places and look, even the "face roll" champs like Yorick bot.. Kassadin..Jax..etc.. only have like 56% winning percentage. Now considering I almost never see 2 kass or 2 jax or 2 Yorick (well I do see 2 Jax a lot) I have to assume the winning percentage is pretty acurate.


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NamKim

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by VejiTehDestroyer View Post
Since Riot balances around SR, can we eliminate the blind pick for Dominions so we can weed out the OP champs that just faceroll every single game they're in?

How do we get Riot to make this change?
This is an extreme scenario and one that jumps to an extreme conclusion.

Just because Riot is balancing towards Summoner Rift does not mean Dominion will always have those few incredibly OP champions. The champions are balanced with Summoner's Rift in mind. But the maps will be balanced with the champions in mind. This is complicated but Riot wants to see if this will work out. And I see no reason why it couldn't work out if done properly.

-Tanky DPS are very strong on Dominion. Why are they strong?
-Why are mages weaker on Dominion?
-The increased mana regen helps tanky DPS more than the mages, why?
-What can we do to make mages stronger but not OP?
-Why is Yorick so OP on Dominion?
-Is Yorick OP on Summoner's Rift as well?
-Does Yorick fit what we (Riot) thinks is a creative and fun champion?
-Why is Jax so powerful?
-Why is Kassadin so powerful?
-Why is Lulu so powerful?
-Which champions are weak on Dominion?
-Why are they weak on Dominion?
-Which items are strong on Dominion?
-Which items are weak on Dominion?
-Are there combination of items that is unfairly powerful on Dominion?

These are the questions that has to be asked. Riot has to go these questions and much more. Then answer them in great detail. Then they start working on a solution. They tackle the problem to actually solve them. Draft Pick is suppose to be a strategic thing. You ban Soraka when your team plans on getting a Karthus, etc. It should not be a "sweep the problem under the rug" feature. That is laziness on Riot's part and that is the something we do not expect, nor want, Riot to do.

tl;dr: We expect more out of Riot than just a "sweep under the rug" solution. We want Riot to find out why these champions are OP and change what is necessary to make Dominion an overall more balanced map. That is what we expect, that is the Standard Riot has to live up to.


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Hamm3rhand

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Senior Member

08-23-2012

Sure! its called "RANKED". Been trying to get that for awhile now haha


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LegendaryEnemy

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by A single hat View Post
it won't happen because its unfeasible and people don't want it.

Unfeasible:
Draft pick requires you have a certain number of champions in order to play. Making it draft only would exclude low level players, and so it probably will never happen.

Lastly, you are going to have to prove your premise that the OP champs "just face roll every single game they're in" because I just don't see it. Having one on your team is an advantage for sure, but I think that the power of a single op champ to strap a team to their back is greatly exaggerated.
I want it.

It's not that champs faceroll every game. Its that some champs are super annoying (shaco, Wukong, Rammus, Kassadin) whilst others are just plain easy cheese (Darius, Jax, Yorick) and in the hands of a skilled player they make use of their inherent advantages to dramatically overpower the enemy team.

Blind pick is not a good place to try out new champions in the case that the enemy team is comprised of annoying, cheap and/or OP champs.

As far as unfeasible, you know what is a great mode for new players who don't have a wide enough roster of champions yet? Co-op vs. AI.


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LegendaryEnemy

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NamKim View Post
1. Tanky DPS are very strong on Dominion. Why are they strong?
2. Why are mages weaker on Dominion?
3. The increased mana regen helps tanky DPS more than the mages, why?
4. What can we do to make mages stronger but not OP?
5. Why is Yorick so OP on Dominion?
6. Is Yorick OP on Summoner's Rift as well?
7. Does Yorick fit what we (Riot) thinks is a creative and fun champion?
8. Why is Jax so powerful?
9. Why is Kassadin so powerful?
10. Why is Lulu so powerful?
11. Which champions are weak on Dominion?
12. Why are they weak on Dominion?
13. Which items are strong on Dominion?
14. Which items are weak on Dominion?
15. Are there combination of items that is unfairly powerful on Dominion?
1. Tend to have strong early games, a highly mobile kit, CC and the increased frequency of team fights requires less farming. As such they tend to have no problem itemizing a solid mix of offense and defense that seems to have an exponential benefit to their Dominion capabilities. Also the armor penetration aura helps.

2. Mages tend to have long cooldowns on abilities at earlier levels. This is balanced around the laning phase and blue buff. Their main problem is early game ability comboing is severely limited and they tend to have awkward periods of auto attacking for little damage. Much of their utility abilities have to be used to do decent damage early on and that leaves them vulnerable.

3. They don't use as much mana. Getting mana and health back when you use less mana and have more defensive stats is going to increase your staying power better.

4. Lower their ability cooldowns at lower ranks. This should not factor into the CDR stat but should be an adjustment. This means balance is kept seperate for SR and Dominion. New players can learn, and Riot is smart enough. Don't give me the same ****.

5. Poke, lane staying power, lane clearing power, he can harass with impunity near constantly which makes recapping neutralized towers difficult, his ult makes it very hard to take his tower, he hurts, and benefits quite well from alot of the tank items (frozen heart for example).

6. Less gold, and less early mana access kind of inhibit his pain potential. He is strong, and he brings something useful to a team but he is not OP.

7. Yes.

8.Problems of tanky DPS personified. Solid mix of magic and attack damage, lots of free damage, clutch defensive and crowd controll abilities that affect the entire enemy team to a limited extent, and the cooldown on leapstrike combined with his MS, and speed shrines makes him have a much easier time killing you than you have killing him.

9. There is a much smaller distance between the fountain and the battlefield generally speaking. His poor early laning doesn't play a factor. He has lots of CC, and he can jump away to safety and jump back in on your face when you are vulnerable if he is clever. There is lots of brush, fog of war, and walls that make his mobility very easy to utilize.

10. She has a long range frequently available kiting and chasing ability (her slow), a shield (not mitigated by the healing debuff), and a health steroid. Combined with Dominion's gold supplying she does damage well, supports her allies well, and is highly survivable. Karma has these things sure, but Karma's damage is not as high and her poke isnt as long range.

11. Champions that are team reliant for closing gaps, kiting or dealing damage.

12. teammates get picked off, towers keep people at bay, the collective damage of the enemy team takes them down too quickly and they can't realy contribute enough in the given time

The last 3 I have no idea D:


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A single hat

Senior Member

08-23-2012

actually, Yorick is considered OP in Summoner's Rift, at least in organized play.

Lemme try my hand at a couple of the questions :P

1. Tanky DPS are very strong on Dominion. Why are they strong?

I actually think their power is slightly overrated. Tournaments show most competetive teams are running an AD carry (usually koggywoggy or EZ). Its the fact that AD carries aren't valued as much in our current meta, so people are used to just womping around with their tankyDPS and don't peal for their AD. Also a ranged DPS is very interchangeable early-midgame for a bruiser so the impact of not having one isn't as obvious

2. Why are mages weaker on Dominion?

Technically the majority of mages are never picked in SR either. The difference is that they are balanced around a really imba buff. They get all their CDR essentially for free, so they only itemize for damage.

3. The increased mana regen helps tanky DPS more than the mages, why?

Increased mana regen helps people who have low ability costs or a giant mana pool. Mages have high mana costs and start with a small mana pool. TankyDPS usually has lower manacosts.

4. What can we do to make mages stronger but not OP?

Giant change, but I would love to see bluebuff's CDR completely removed and mages rebalanced around that in SR. I think that would help dominion mages significantly (since they would be balanced around some of the same principles for both maps), and also be a nice change in SR as well (more itemchoices being utilized as well as less snowballing off an early buff steal). Less radical changes include introducing kickbutt earlygame mage items for dominion or somehow having a magey buff thing that a team can donate to their AP, but I think the giant change might be the healthiest way longterm.

5. Why is Yorick so OP on Dominion? Is Yorick OP on Summoner's Rift as well?

Combined the questions because he is OP in both modes. I think he is reasonably close in Dominion because enough champs can lane against him, but he has a lot going for him. Early game, he is already a monster pusher while many champs who beat him later can't push as well against him. He is hard to gank because of his ultimate especially when combined with revive to loophole the zombie mode revive timer changes.

7. Does Yorick fit what we (Riot) thinks is a creative and fun champion?

very subjective. He is a cool guy, but I think his skillcap is a bit too low. From playing him, I don't notice many decision points in his kit. He usually has enough mana to spam his stuff, and usually spamming his stuff is his best play. Simply pressing QWE as often as they are off CD isn't terribly interesting to watch or play.

8. Why is Jax so powerful?

Looking too powerful in every mode. I'm expecting a nerf.

9. Why is Kassadin so powerful?

Unmatched mobility. His mana costs reign him in a little, but if I'm playing kassadin and something important is happening, I can just spam R on my way there and when I get there I do a truckload of damage and have decent tankyness. Going back for mana has a low opportunity cost most of the time, and its almost impossible to catch a Kassadin.

10. Why is Lulu so powerful?

Personally, I think OP in SR as well. We are seeing more and more Lulu picks because of the wombocombos you can make with her ultimate

11. Which champions are weak on Dominion?
12. Why are they weak on Dominion?

Asking the wrong question. The real question is how we can balance champions that are strong in SR but weak in dominion. Weak champions in general just need buffs, but champs that excel in one but suck in the other need something else.

13. Which items are strong on Dominion? Which items are weak on Dominion?

Actually I would say that most items are weak in general. I make jokes with my friends about which "unique items" a carry has built since you almost always see a combination of TrinityForce, BT, IE, PD, LW, and Defensive item. However, there's a lot of items that you never see anyone build viably and others that are built every single game. More item balance is something I would like to see from LoL in the future.

15. Are there combination of items that is unfairly powerful on Dominion?

Given my last answer, I guess you could say any 2k+ elo viable set of items is probably unfairly powerful since the other items aren't used. I would like to see more build diversity among champs of similar roles. IE I don't want to have to build the same items on all tanks or all bruisers, it just turns out that my alternatives aren't worth it.


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Infirc

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by A single hat View Post
it won't happen because its unfeasible and people don't want it.

Unfeasible:
Draft pick requires you have a certain number of champions in order to play. Making it draft only would exclude low level players, and so it probably will never happen.

Unwanted:
People play blind pick for reasons other than queue time. Its a great mode to try champs out without worrying about getting couterpicked or playing a game without your teammates losing it before the game begins. Also, for anyone that thinks that having everyone in the draft pool would lower queue times, let me be clear. It *would* lower queue times, but a similarly made blind pick pool would still have lower queue times because of how long draft takes to pick and ban. The "clock queue time" would be the same, but the time from entering queue to entering game would be higher for draft.


Lastly, you are going to have to prove your premise that the OP champs "just face roll every single game they're in" because I just don't see it. Having one on your team is an advantage for sure, but I think that the power of a single op champ to strap a team to their back is greatly exaggerated.
Kassadin says hi, Jax was lazy and sent a post card.

to the OP: it would be still as bad as current draft pick due to Dominion having literally no dodge penalty, that's why people moved to blind even if they had 2 minutes queue time they had to spend over half an hour trying to get into a game because some people didn't like some picks on their team and dodged the hell out of all games making games shorter than actually gettig into them.


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NamKim

Senior Member

08-23-2012

As much as I want to thank you guys for taking the time to answer those questions. I know the answers to all those questions or at least have some sort of opinion of them. You guys were just missing the whole point.

The point being we can ban Yorick, Jax, Lulu, Rengar, Kass from every game. But why? Why should we ban certain champions from every game? That is just bad game design. You can have a set of champions and balance the map to fit the needs of the champions. That is what's taking Riot so long to do changes to Dominion even after they stated time and time again that they are ACTIVELY and CURRENTLY working on the map as we speak.

Riot is focusing on the big picture. Things like Yorick is just OP on all maps. They need to change Yorick separately from everything else. But champions like Riven, Jax, Wukong, Darius, etc. They're really strong on Dominion. They can balance Riven, Jax, Wukong, and Darius but every time they release a new tanky DPS champion, they have to be balanced for Dominion. That is a ton of work for such a little result. Why not change Dominion to make sure Tanky DPS's are not OP in Dominion. Why not give mages a universal "buff" to make them on par with the Tanky DPS's without making them OP.

This is the type of balancing that we deserve and expect from Riot. Not these little changes to the champions here and there just for Dominion. Not just permanent bans on a few champions. I have high expectations for Riot and Riot has high standards they want to follow through on. I am not going to let Riot cheat and take the easy way out on this.

I know Rioters probably hate me for saying that but this company is too good for me to let them become a crappy one in the future. I'm going to do whatever I can to hold Riot accountable so they remain one of the best game companies.


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