Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


@RiotRaven or kitae: Kayle and Morgana, about them and their race:

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheUltimate3

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
RiotRaven:

Kayle and Morgana aren't angels, but instead natural physical beings. They can reproduce normally.


I'm more interested in the possibilities in this statement than I should be...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

LimitlessChaos

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
RiotRaven:
What I mean is that it will be even cooler!


Why does Riot constantly give out that answer?

It's a cop-out because you for some reason are trying to avoid putting in a champion that is quite clearly a demon. Yes that's a rather bold statement, but do something to prove me wrong since you actually put this much effort into making sure it's clear that Kayle isn't an "angel" (she's just a divine-powered winged humanoid whose splash art shows her in the clouds...and she has a rivalry with a splinter-faction of her own race that are "evil" in her view... right) when she is, aside from the fact that you refuse to name her such. It's funny that you won't identify her as an angel, but you'll let angel be used as a descriptor for Morgana....if there aren't angels in Valoran, how is the average Runeterran to know what "The Fallen Angel" means any more than an Earthling would know what a "Crystal Vanguard" is?

Lame.

Darksiders and Diablo both feature "red-skinned, horned, blah blah" demons and have made them their own. Hell, take a good long look at Samael from the Darksiders series. You can say what you want about the gameplay/etc... the fact is, that is one damned fine design for a demon and aside from his inverted wings, he makes use of all the demon "tropes" while being his own character.

Why does Riot want to skirt that so hard...don't tell me "because we'll make it cooler" because we've seen where that idea landed you (Shyvana, while a fun champion to play and neat as a half-something, did not satisfy the "WE WANT A DRAGON" thing the way she was purportedly going to...similar to how I don't think Hecarim, described by Morello as a "Centaur Death Knight type" satisfies the dark spell-sword character this game needs ala "Lord of Avernus" from the original DotA)

I find that when Riot simply rolls with a trope, keeping most traditional elements, they succeed....ala Morgana and Kayle. You might not want to admit they're angels, but they more or less are. Hell, Kayle even has a flaming sword...something associated with the [Arch]Angel Michael; though I suppose it's debatable whether or not he had a physical sword of flame or if it's something symbolic? I'm not exactly an established, published scholar of the Christian bible.

Tl;dr version: Riot uses tropes and common archetypes to success all the time, whilst keeping their own vision in other areas.

See: Kayle, Morgana, Garen, Darius, Nasus, Renekton (more liberty with the brothers here than the other) Brand...even Anivia - she retains the core of being an immortal bird creature of elemental nature (she even has the good old re-birth ability like most gaming phoenixes) but she's ice instead of fire. Good work.

I just don't see why it's a big deal to roll with the traditional demon ala Doombringer and Darksiders' Samael but give it Riot's own mark in the kit/some other part of it. You've done it a billion other times; it's not like it has to be in direct opposition to Kayle or something and thus serve as a potential religious thing...why that matters, I don't know. There are games on the market right now that feature that very idea (again...Darksiders kind of takes the idea of the apocalypse and such and turns it on its head...it's wildly successful too and tells a great story) and aren't blown to smithereens.

So yeah...give us a damn demonic champion already. You already did a ton of other "standard" types and mostly succeeded. Garen's a stereotypical knight in shining armor with a big sword; yet he's got signatures that make him Riot's and he's well-loved.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Larcent

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
LimitlessChaos:
Why does Riot constantly give out that answer?

It's a cop-out because you for some reason are trying to avoid putting in a champion that is quite clearly a demon. Yes that's a rather bold statement, but do something to prove me wrong since you actually put this much effort into making sure it's clear that Kayle isn't an "angel" (she's just a divine-powered winged humanoid whose splash art shows her in the clouds...and she has a rivalry with a splinter-faction of her own race that are "evil" in her view... right) when she is, aside from the fact that you refuse to name her such. It's funny that you won't identify her as an angel, but you'll let angel be used as a descriptor for Morgana....if there aren't angels in Valoran, how is the average Runeterran to know what "The Fallen Angel" means any more than an Earthling would know what a "Crystal Vanguard" is?

Lame.

Darksiders and Diablo both feature "red-skinned, horned, blah blah" demons and have made them their own. Hell, take a good long look at Samael from the Darksiders series. You can say what you want about the gameplay/etc... the fact is, that is one damned fine design for a demon and aside from his inverted wings, he makes use of all the demon "tropes" while being his own character.

Why does Riot want to skirt that so hard...don't tell me "because we'll make it cooler" because we've seen where that idea landed you (Shyvana, while a fun champion to play and neat as a half-something, did not satisfy the "WE WANT A DRAGON" thing the way she was purportedly going to...similar to how I don't think Hecarim, described by Morello as a "Centaur Death Knight type" satisfies the dark spell-sword character this game needs ala "Lord of Avernus" from the original DotA)

I find that when Riot simply rolls with a trope, keeping most traditional elements, they succeed....ala Morgana and Kayle. You might not want to admit they're angels, but they more or less are. Hell, Kayle even has a flaming sword...something associated with the [Arch]Angel Michael; though I suppose it's debatable whether or not he had a physical sword of flame or if it's something symbolic? I'm not exactly an established, published scholar of the Christian bible.

Tl;dr version: Riot uses tropes and common archetypes to success all the time, whilst keeping their own vision in other areas.

See: Kayle, Morgana, Garen, Darius, Nasus, Renekton (more liberty with the brothers here than the other) Brand...even Anivia - she retains the core of being an immortal bird creature of elemental nature (she even has the good old re-birth ability like most gaming phoenixes) but she's ice instead of fire. Good work.

I just don't see why it's a big deal to roll with the traditional demon ala Doombringer and Darksiders' Samael but give it Riot's own mark in the kit/some other part of it. You've done it a billion other times; it's not like it has to be in direct opposition to Kayle or something and thus serve as a potential religious thing...why that matters, I don't know. There are games on the market right now that feature that very idea (again...Darksiders kind of takes the idea of the apocalypse and such and turns it on its head...it's wildly successful too and tells a great story) and aren't blown to smithereens.

So yeah...give us a damn demonic champion already. You already did a ton of other "standard" types and mostly succeeded. Garen's a stereotypical knight in shining armor with a big sword; yet he's got signatures that make him Riot's and he's well-loved.


Um, they made a demon skin for Galio, you know. Granted it's not canon, but they're obviously not afraid to pursue that look.

I think the issue would not be lore so much as a demon would have to have a visual profile that would not be confused with somebody like Galio or Cho'gath to make it very clear to players who they were facing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fox P McCloud

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
RiotRaven:
Nope! It just won't be a traditional red-skinned, horned, winged demon/devil.


Thematically though, that's kinda important, not to mention you've already pretty much tinkered with this in Dark Crystal Ryze, the most recent Alistar skin, and the legendary Galio skin.

If you don't have these aspects, then it's not a demon/devil--it's some new archetype you've created----and people will continue to pester for the demonic archetype.

Besides, what's so unique about Kayle, as far as "angel archetype" goes? Warwick, Karthus, and Alistar, I would posit, are in the same, exact category--there's nothing particularly striking/unique about them as far as an "LoL mark" goes; they're just plain old a steretypical archetype of sorts...and that's fine; all these champs are popular and none are complained about visually, thematically, or lore wise.

Why recoil from popular archetypes purely for the sake of making it intentionally unique to the nth degree? Sometimes it's not uqniueness players want, but familiarity/thematics.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Alice Twilight

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
RiotRaven:
Nope! It just won't be a traditional red-skinned, horned, winged demon/devil.

Does this mean we'll get something really cool, like a handsome man wearing an nice suit with expensive sunglasses? Maybe throw some black feathery wings or leathery bat wings on him?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IS12a6435041c36e3214d49

Senior Member

08-23-2012

It feels like my question about devils seems wrong to say...

Just meaning, the opposite race from Kayle and Morgana (may not be a devil, but it holds its hellish theme.).

I guess that creating a demonic archetype champion must be hard to do. (skins, lore etc...)


Reason I took up this thread up is because of I played Heroes of Might and Magic 5, where this Inferno creature "Pit Lord" looks so dayum awesome "Along with that Vorpal Sword".

I thought for myself, "waitaminute, where is devil type champion if Morgana is just a fallen angel?"
Then I looked up about Morgana about Arthurian legend, and finally to King Arthur Pendragon and his illegitimate son Mordred, who dealt the fatal blow to the king.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Larcent

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Oh, also, it's pretty clear that the Void is essentially LoL's concept of Hell.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DreamsOfGrandeur

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
RiotRaven:
Kayle and Morgana aren't angels, but instead natural physical beings. They can reproduce normally.


And horse number 7, "DISTURBING FAN-FICTIONS", starts to take the lead!

Quote:
Larcent:
Oh, also, it's pretty clear that the Void is essentially LoL's concept of Hell.


Actually, the Void is LoL's concept of another dimension.

A place of completely foreign and deadly concepts.

There's no concept of Hell in LoL's universe yet.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vuther

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
RiotRaven:
What I mean is that it will be even cooler!

You tease. :-|

Quote:
LimitlessChaos:
So yeah...give us a damn demonic champion already. You already did a ton of other "standard" types and mostly succeeded. Garen's a stereotypical knight in shining armor with a big sword; yet he's got signatures that make him Riot's and he's well-loved.

Well, like you said, Riot's used archetypes that have a few signatures to make stand out just enough. That is probably just what he means.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IS12a6435041c36e3214d49

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
RiotRaven:
What I mean is that it will be even cooler!


Is it cooler than Pit Lord from HoMM5?


123