Do you think the Tribunal is effective?

Yes (Please explain why) 347 65.72%
No (Please explain why) 181 34.28%
Voters: 528. You may not vote on this poll

Poll: Do you think the Tribunal is effective?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ginga

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

08-19-2012

I'm voting no.

For my reasons...(some of them have already been stated)

1) This is a free game. A troll can easily just play up to level 30, ruin everyone else's game for an absurdly long time before getting banned. After which, they could easily just make a new email and create a new account to rinse and repeat. Same for highly toxic players who only gets worse the more they play the game. Imagine the effect of those people on new players who are only starting out in this game. Not many people know about MOBA's hotheaded community, and not many people are fully prepared for it.

2) Everyone who are ban worthy or engage in ban worthy behaviour do not believe they will get caught by the Tribunal. They know "some" people get banned because of it, but the community of players is so large that they feel protected from getting banned.

3) If I got anything from my social psyc courses, Positive Reinforcement>Negative Reinforcement. Tribunal is pure 100% Negative Reinforcement, while very important in reducing toxic behaviour, will NEVER get terribly great results without something to encourage good behaviours at the same time. I'm not saying this should be removed, but I'm saying the game should have both Positive and Negative at the same time.

4) Tribunal cases are given nothing but the chat log. Any troll with any bit of common sense at all will just talk normally in the chat log, act all innocent, and engage in trollish behaviour in-game. I once had a really ****ty Ashe give up midway through a close game and just follow me around spamming her abilities and spamming emotes. Can your Tribunal detect that? Tribunal can not detect physical actions, period. I have always requested this game had a built in replay function, and this is one of the reasons why.

5) Lack of Champion Select and post-game chat given to Tribunal

6) Nothing is done about people who selfishly insta-locks a role that's already been taken. This is the lesser of the problems stated, but this is a common catalyst to a lot of toxic games I've played.

7) Lastly, it doesn't address the core of the issue for the ragers. Trolls troll because they're trolls. But the raging chimpanzees that we see all the time, the type we become ourselves sometimes, this is caused by something in the MOBA genre as a whole that needs to be looked at. A casual LoL player is a tryhard by standards of other genres.




I bolded the parts that are most important.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Retired Noob

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

08-19-2012

I think that the Tribunal would work better if there was a way to see other people's thought processes behind their own decisions, or a way to discuss the actions that the person had made that might have been questionable.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

onihero

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Define 'False Positive'.

And I voted 'no' because I see so many trolls still. Easily the same amount as before.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Donnylicious

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
But I ask you, how many cases are perfectly legitimate and accurate? For every case you see on the forums where you believe the banning was unjust, what if there are 50,000 cases where the banning was just?

Is it possible to have a perfect system where the false positive rate is 0%? What false positive rate is acceptable to players? In medical fields, a false positive rate of 5% is considered standard and a false positive rate of 1% is excellent. We hold the Tribunal to harsher standards, requiring much better than a 1% false positive rate.

As a company, banning players and removing players from the game is the last thing we want to do. We take banning very seriously--we have Player Support reviewing tons of cases to assign punishments and ensure accuracy. We have designers, analysts and executives personally reviewing numerous cases every week, even ones that are just for warnings.
That's not what my report card says. In 4/4 punishments against me, 1 report was taken out of context,

IE: I was playing as Zyra for the first time, didn't know her abilities and said, "this girl sucks." Later, Zyra being a new champ, i died alot. So the team decides to report this. Of course anyone reviewing this report will look at my first line of chat and vote punish.

3 reports were me trying not to be rude while standing up for myself against verbally abusive allies. It was either that or ignore everyone. Again, this is beside the point. The point is, these Tribunal reports do not give a clear context of situations. It's based mostly on chat log data.
Has Riot thought about a positive reinforcement system? Or maybe one that doesn't rely on a limited evidence?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kikhan

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

The Tibunal certainly cleaned up the game significantly in its first couple of months.

It really needs to have a positive reinforcement added to it if people are good in games behavior wise.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hexenir

Senior Member

08-19-2012

I joined the League at the same time as Lux, or something around it. At the time, I was too busy learning how to play (becoming invisible at bushes amazed me every single time) to pay attention on chat or in the game as a whole, which means I have absolutely no memory of bad experiences. They probably existed, but I simply didn't care about it.

When I reached level 30, I focused less on my own gameplay and started to work as group - setting up group activities, ganks, objectives and such. That's when I started paying attention on teammates decision making and chat.

You see, I was really bad - I had just reached level 30 "runes are too expensive, I'll never buy them". So I was, more often than not, raged at. I never went jungle, just because I was sure I would be attacked so much that any attempt to do something would result in complete frustration. My jungle training was facing the only 5 or so bots that were available at the time. This might explain why today jungle is my worst role.

Today, when you read "Intentionally Feeding", you think 0/10, 0/15 if the player is trolling REALLY hard. Having 0/20 wasn't that uncommon.

I don't see this kind of stuff anymore. Yes, there are ragers, yes, there are int feeders, but they are SO much rare than used to be. Playing League is so much more entertaining than before - not because I got better, but because I can actually talk to my allies and enemies without being bashed in every possible way. I have so many fun matches, where both allies and enemies get along, independently of who is winning, that it feels like another game from before. And honestly, when I read those chat logs here on the forum, I wonder if I'm playing the same game as you are, because I hardly ever find players that are *that* unpleasant.

So yes, I have absolutely sure that the Tribunal is working - at least mid-long term.

Well, that or the matchmaking only selects nice players to play with me <3

PS: I mean, really, I don't know if I got so used at the absurdly aggressive players from my early League experience that today offenses are simply "auto-ignored" by me, but when I read Tribunal chat logs, all I can think is "I never meet this kind of player". This is one thing that really intrigues me.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Donnylicious

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Actually, we're doing the opposite for a few reasons. There's too many categories with too much overlap and each report has a specific definition that is hard to understand for many players. For example, what the difference between "Intentionally Feeding" and "Assisting Enemy Team?" One could argue that intentionally feeding is assisting the enemy team. Expanding reports to even more categories just increases the potential confusion and overlap between reports.
This is exactly the point. It's too grey. And your asking players to judge and possibly ban people ...

Quote:
In the future, I'm going to try to reduce the reports down to just the basics. Perhaps we'll require players to put in a detailed report reason, perhaps not. We have to see.

A lot of players ask for replays in the Tribunal, but it's not a great solution. For example, the vast majority of cases already have enough evidence to render an accurate verdict--we have done numerous analyses on this. Secondly, very, very few players actually want to load up a client and watch a replay to look for toxic behaviors--the barrier of entry is just so high so why work on a feature that almost no players will actually use?

Then you might ask: well, what do we do about cases where there isn't enough information in a classic Tribunal case and we need replays to tell what's going on? Well, the Tribunal isn't the answer for those cases. The Tribunal is one piece of the player behavior solution and we are constantly working on others.



What rule are you referring to? We're in the process of re-doing the guidelines and FAQ and this just sounds like an old rule we missed.



We won't be allowing reviewers to 'judge' other players in a given game--this is mainly to avoid double jeopardy. We encourage players to focus on the player you are given in your case because it's likely the other toxic players in the game are already being voted on in another case or even already punished.
Again, what about a positive reinforcement system that doesn't rely on limited evidence?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lyte

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

08-19-2012
5 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnylicious View Post
This is exactly the point. It's too grey. And your asking players to judge and possibly ban people ...

Again, what about a positive reinforcement system that doesn't rely on limited evidence?
I think you might be missing the point; how does a positive reinforcement system change some of these extremely toxic players? It doesn't. Some players simply need to be removed from the game. There's unfortunately no unified solution to player behavior.

If you really want people to discuss your case, you should post your Reform Card.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sizmic

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

yes its effecitve and fair. I wish I would do more about some of the trolls we have but its dependent on reporting and thats the weakness.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Corngina

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

No.

It literally gives power to the masses and puts the minorities at risk of being abused. 4 member premade on your team? Odds are you'll be reported for some silly reason, and if at any point in the match sounded like anything worse than a Kindergarten teacher (no this is not hyperbole), you'll find yourself punished.