What do Noxians think of the Rakkor?

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MiaoLong

Senior Member

08-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by belthazor3457 View Post
So, you're effectively asking me, why don't I contribute a larger amount of military assets to deal with a minor threat when I already have a major threat to deal with. So, I ask you... why would I do that?
They are not at war, not any longer, anyhow, since the League was formed. Which means most military resources directed towards the Demacians would cease. It is clear by Pan's lore that the Rakkor, joined after the Demacians and Noxians did. At this point, the Noxian military would have ample resources to wipe out the small tribe that has been humiliating them for so long, right? And the Rakkor certainly wouldn't stop their warlike efforts just because Demacia and Noxus stopped fighting.

Also, something tells me that the decimation of entire battalions converts to something a little more than a "minor threat".




But this is all besides the point. I can't say that I believe that a real Noxian, faced the subject of a tribe of people that regularly humiliate their own armed forces, could say with a straight face that they are certain they are the stronger and therefore worthier people.

They might guess that their combined national resources are enough to defeat them, and they are probably right, but we all know that there is only one way to prove that, and until then, it's just talk, and everyone knows it. Like I said, knucka can blow his mouth off on how he's so much more raw than this other fool, and he may even be right, but until he does something about it, he's just talk.

You can't just say you're stronger than someone and expect everyone to be satisfied with that. You have to prove it.

On the other hand, Rakkor beat the Noxians in whatever engagements that they have. If the Rakkor ever lost a battle, it was almost certainly by overwhelming 300 level like odds. In the only real measure of strength between these two states that the Noxians have, they have lost over and over.



That's why I'm wondering what the Noxians would think of a tribe, that which in their only contests of strength, have miserably lost.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

08-22-2012

First off, if the Rakkor were disappointed at not being given an invitation, odds are they would send someone to represent them as quickly as possible - prior to everything being fully set up. Was Pantheon not a member of the original group? It's likely that Pantheon showed up during the initial ceasefire if that's the case. At that point, with league representation, the Rakkor do not get a special "we still get to attack the Demacians and Noxians even though they're not allowed to attack anyone else or attack us" clause. Them getting extra-special-rules-just-for-them from the league isn't going to happen.


Also...

Didn't you just defeat your own point?

Quote:
You can't just say you're stronger than someone and expect everyone to be satisfied with that. You have to prove it.
Ok. And the Rakkor have done nothing but engage nations that had more important things to do. Where's this big fancy Rakkor proof? Their raids were successful? That's it? You got to ambush some infantry troop movements. And managed to wipe them out. So? And? One has to think about the bigger picture. Two nations, the size of Demacia and Noxus, and all the vast territory they control, they have to pay attention to eachother, not the minor-in-comparison losses the Rakkor inflict.

The Rakkor would be saying they're stronger, but not be engaging anyone. If they wanted representation in the league of legends, then they were concerned about the Demacians or the Noxians dealing with them due to them lacking the same protections and rules offered to league participants.

The Rakkor havn't proven themselves stronger, because to do that, they'd need to engage in actual warfare with either Demacia, or Noxus, or some other noteworthy power worth something, not just harass two opposed forces in wartime that have more pressing concerns than to retaliate. And they openly turned down that offer by including themselves in the league.

So, doesn't that defeat your own point?


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Zalmeran

Member

08-22-2012

I think it depends on who you ask from Noxus. I think warriors like Darius and Riven have a great amount of respect for them since their skill in battle is without equal. However I doubt Mr. Swain respects them very much since he is a man of conquest. I think Riven especially must love the Rakkor since they are a lot like Noxus used to be, a place where strenght and honor is revered. While Talon must think of them as fools since he believs (along with many other Noxians) that this thing called "honor" is nothing more than bogus that will kill you one day.

Also, Noxus (and possibly Demacia as well) must be kind of... frustrated with the Rakkor. I mean imagine if Noxus won a HUGE battle against Demacia, forcing them to retreat after having suffered huge losses. Noxus now plans to invade Demacia itself... BUT! This random gang of crazy warmongers appears as from nowhere and says "If you wanna get to Demacia you have to get through us!" and then the Rakkor slaughters the Noxian army, resetting the conflict between Demacia and Noxus to a stale-mate. I for one would be really mad at that, especially since the Rakkor has no reason to do so, they simply do war because it's fun.

I think the reason no real winner was declared in the rune wars wars partly because no one probably could win. When either side got an advantage, the Rakkor showed up and spoiled it.


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Frequently

Senior Member

08-23-2012

They probably think that they're a pretty cool bunch of dudes who live on a mountain and don't accomplish very much, and really wouldn't mind using them if they could ever get their hands on them.

I somehow doubt they worship them, though.

Y'know, pretty much what any city-state probably thinks of them.


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MiaoLong

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by belthazor3457 View Post
First off, if the Rakkor were disappointed at not being given an invitation, odds are they would send someone to represent them as quickly as possible - prior to everything being fully set up. Was Pantheon not a member of the original group? It's likely that Pantheon showed up during the initial ceasefire if that's the case. At that point, with league representation, the Rakkor do not get a special "we still get to attack the Demacians and Noxians even though they're not allowed to attack anyone else or attack us" clause. Them getting extra-special-rules-just-for-them from the league isn't going to happen.
What I'm saying is, during the time that the Demacians and Noxians underwent a cease-fire, they is ample time for the Noxians to supposedly crush the Rakkor, and I'm sure the Rakkor, not yet joined the League, would be happy to oblige. Note that Tyrn and Ashe are in the initial group too, but Noxus still had an opening to launch a "pacification" campaign on the Freijord barbarians.

If Noxus really had the capacity to crush the Rakkor, they would have done it. Note also that the Noxians did not crush what is supposedly a rabble of barbarians as easily as you said they would the Rakkor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by belthazor3457 View Post

Also...

Didn't you just defeat your own point?



Ok. And the Rakkor have done nothing but engage nations that had more important things to do. Where's this big fancy Rakkor proof? Their raids were successful? That's it? You got to ambush some infantry troop movements. And managed to wipe them out. So? And? One has to think about the bigger picture. Two nations, the size of Demacia and Noxus, and all the vast territory they control, they have to pay attention to eachother, not the minor-in-comparison losses the Rakkor inflict.

The Rakkor would be saying they're stronger, but not be engaging anyone. If they wanted representation in the league of legends, then they were concerned about the Demacians or the Noxians dealing with them due to them lacking the same protections and rules offered to league participants.

The Rakkor havn't proven themselves stronger, because to do that, they'd need to engage in actual warfare with either Demacia, or Noxus, or some other noteworthy power worth something, not just harass two opposed forces in wartime that have more pressing concerns than to retaliate. And they openly turned down that offer by including themselves in the league.

So, doesn't that defeat your own point?

So, wiping out 300 to 1200 soldiers, like every Tuesday, doesn't count as actual warfare? What is real warfare then, General? Standing in the ruins of your enemy and complaining that they didn't have more reinforcements isn't proof that at least in that instance, you're stronger? Regularly challenging enemies at 10 to 1 odds, and beating them, isn't proving something?

The corpses of your thousands of foes lying in the dirt is some pretty clear proof there.


And you have some very weird ideas of "harass". I'd like to see the commander that regularly loses entire battalions, thousands and thousands of men, to some other enemy, write that off as "harrassment". Holding land is one measure of power. But obviously, so is killing the other guys, in fact, more so, because grabbing land does not come without killing others.

If you choose not to expand, who the hell's going to tell you you're actually weak? They're all dead.


You say that the Rakkor really haven't accomplished anything, land wise, but that's because they've never bothered, not because they can't. Could a Noxian really take pride in the fact that although the Rakkor kick their asses 10 to 1, they don't conquer because they don't want to?

Oh, we must be stronger, then, thinks a Noxian in your world. They kill us 10 to 1, complain because we don't send enough men, and we lose entire independent operation units to their warmongering, but they don't bother grabbing land, so they must be weak lol.



The Rakkor have proved their strength to the Noxians. Seriously, there is no way to dismiss entire battalions going missing, and at 10 to 1 odds, as harassment. Land held is not the measure of power, killing your opponents is the measure of power, and lands are the spoils of victory for the strong to deal with as they wish. Was that Keiran Darkwill stronger than Swain because he held the higher office? No, that office was the spoils of being strong, and if Swain defeated Darkwill, and didn't bother with the office, Swain would still be the stronger one.

It is the same analogy with lands.

The Noxians have either done nothing or tried to root out the Rakkor and failed. Either way, the Noxians have done nothing to prove their strength to the Rakkor in turn, failing pretty miserably in the instances where they do fight. Clearly the genocide you kind of creepily escalated to has not happened.



At the very least, the Rakkor are a huge blow to Noxian pride.


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MiaoLong

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRaven View Post
The Rakkor are a fierce people, no doubt. However, the Rakkor are not populous enough to be a real threat. If the occasional band of Rakkor takes out some Noxian soldiers – who are very dangerous themselves – then it would be harassment. There aren't enough Rakkor to do anything but that.

Noxians respect strength, and the Rakkor certainly have that. They may not like them, however.
So I got a red post on the subject. It looks like the Rakkor aren't really that big of a threat, even though that was already established, I guess I underestimated just how many Rakkor there are. Seems like Rakkor just wipe out battalions on special occasions. Like maybe it was Pantheon's birthday on that day he said that quote or something lol. But it also seems like the Noxian do respect the Rakkor, and don't just write them off for no reason.

So we're clear here then. The Rakkor have proven their strength to the Noxians. There just aren't enough of them for the Noxians to treat them with anything other than a level of respect, and probably some distance.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
What I'm saying is, during the time that the Demacians and Noxians underwent a cease-fire, they is ample time for the Noxians to supposedly crush the Rakkor, and I'm sure the Rakkor, not yet joined the League, would be happy to oblige. Note that Tyrn and Ashe are in the initial group too, but Noxus still had an opening to launch a "pacification" campaign on the Freijord barbarians.

If Noxus really had the capacity to crush the Rakkor, they would have done it. Note also that the Noxians did not crush what is supposedly a rabble of barbarians as easily as you said they would the Rakkor.
This, I answered already in a previous post. I'm not going to repeat myself if my answers will be ignored and deliberately skipped over or misinterprited.

Quote:
So, wiping out 300 to 1200 soldiers, like every Tuesday, doesn't count as actual warfare? What is real warfare then, General? Standing in the ruins of your enemy and complaining that they didn't have more reinforcements isn't proof that at least in that instance, you're stronger? Regularly challenging enemies at 10 to 1 odds, and beating them, isn't proving something?

The corpses of your thousands of foes lying in the dirt is some pretty clear proof there.
You're implying that 300-1200 is significant. It may very well not be. This depends on a number of factors. The first being population and army size. The larger the army is, the less significant and noticeable that will be. As I mentioned before, Noxus and Demacia hold much more territory which is also more valuable and habitable than a mountain - that would mean greater capabilities of, for example, food production to sustain a population.

But population is not the only factor. I'm going to use the vietnam war as an example. The north viet lost about twenty soldiers for every american killed or wounded (and I'd like to note that we're being generous and shooting low on the estimates). About a ratio closer to nine to one if you also factor south viet forces lost as well. As the primairy goal was to kill american forces, this ratio was abysmal. NVA forces were often poorly trained and poorly equipped and would lose ambush parties entirely in return for killing one or two americans or south vietnamese. The tet offensive cost 10,000 NV soldiers their lives, in return for a pitiful 220ish american casualties.

That ratio is horrid. To the point that NVA soldiers put tattoos on themselves saying "born in the north to die in the south" - and their leader openly stated he would happily sacrifice 10 of his soldiers to kill one american.

But, their goal was acomplished. The media mongrels sucked up the warfare and destroyed american public support for the war, so they left, and the north was free to conquer the south. The NVA lost every battle (in terms of K/D) and lost every frontal engagement with American forces. When confronted about this, their leader said the following: "True... but also irrelivant."

Quote:
And you have some very weird ideas of "harass". I'd like to see the commander that regularly loses entire battalions, thousands and thousands of men, to some other enemy, write that off as "harrassment". Holding land is one measure of power. But obviously, so is killing the other guys, in fact, more so, because grabbing land does not come without killing others.
There you go, I've given you one. The NV commander, taken from a real war here on Earth.

Quote:
The Rakkor have proved their strength to the Noxians. Seriously, there is no way to dismiss entire battalions going missing, and at 10 to 1 odds, as harassment. Land held is not the measure of power, killing your opponents is the measure of power, and lands are the spoils of victory for the strong to deal with as they wish.
Wrong. Your kill-to-death ratio is meaningless if you lose the war. Winning the war is what matters. If you kill your enemy in the process, then it is a means to an end, not the end goal. Your end goal is to win.

You asked for a commander that could do the above, I have given you one.

You asked why the Noxians would not go adopt the Rakkor philosophies, I have answered that.

You asked why the Noxians would not go out of their way to attack the Rakkor, I answered that as well in a previous post.

Anything else?

So I have a question for you. Why would the Rakkor join the league if they had to give up their raids, if not for fear of reprisal from Demacia and Noxus?


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaoLong View Post
So I got a red post on the subject. It looks like the Rakkor aren't really that big of a threat, even though that was already established, I guess I underestimated just how many Rakkor there are. Seems like Rakkor just wipe out battalions on special occasions. Like maybe it was Pantheon's birthday on that day he said that quote or something lol. But it also seems like the Noxian do respect the Rakkor, and don't just write them off for no reason.

So we're clear here then. The Rakkor have proven their strength to the Noxians. There just aren't enough of them for the Noxians to treat them with anything other than a level of respect, and probably some distance.
But those are all points I already mentioned to you. Why not copy-paste what you said to me in response to them, and say it to the red poster?


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MiaoLong

Senior Member

08-23-2012

What else is there? This entire time you were arguing that the Rakkor would get no respect from the Noxians, because something about never taking land, or air bombardments and gas attack or something. But he cleared it up right there. The Noxians respect strength, and the Rakkor are clearly strong. Fortunately for the Noxians, there aren't that many of them.


Lol, that's it. I got from the rioter that the Noxians do respect the Rakkor, but the Rakkor aren't a large enough population to cause the identity crisis I was outlining.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
This entire time you were arguing that the Rakkor would get no respect from the Noxians, because something about never taking land, or air bombardments and gas attack or something.
Falsified statement. Someone who hasn't read the previous posts would read that and think that I never mentioned the same topic the Riot poster mentioned - population shortage, which I mentioned in the very first post I made in this thread, here:

Quote:
The main flaw that the spartans had on earth, ultimately leading to their downfall, was that 10 soldiers that you can divide up and send to points A, B, and C are more valuable than one soldier who can fight with the power of 10, when it comes to the scale of actually winning wars.
Here.

Quote:
Since the Rakkor have a similar practice, they could never legitimately conquer anything or hold territory simply because they do not have the manpower to do so. They can sit ontop of their mountain until someone eventually decides their mountain has resources worth taking (which it doesn't, as far as anyone is aware). It doesn't matter if you're a super-duper soldier equivalent to 10 or 20 men. You cannot be everywhere at the same moment. If you need a small number of people to hold one point, you will be advantaged, but you cannot expand.
And here.

Quote:
The Noxian philosophy of strength can be applied to a gigantic population capable of fielding large armies to defeat other gigantic nations capable of fielding large armies. The purpose being to defeat enemies and eventually sieze their territory. The Rakkor cannot do this.

In short, you have twelve men. You want to manufacture a tank for each of the 12 men to drive around. You could spend all the resources for those 12 tanks, instead of on building 12 tanks, on building one nice tank for one of those 12, leaving the other 11 wandering about on foot. Or you can lower the quality of the individual tank somewhat in return for all-around efficiency with a dozen tanks.
Your question included asking why the Noxians would not respect the Rakkor enough to switch to their values. I answered the question with the population point and explained why the population point was important.

Let's go through the Riot post step-by-step.

He covered that the Rakkor were efficient fighters. I covered that. He covered that they had a population disadvantage. I covered that. What else do you have to gain from that riot post that you are quoting that could not have already been derived from the answer I already gave you on the first page? These questions were answered in the very first post I mentioned in the thread. I just went and explained why the population difference was important.

So once again, how was this question not answered for you already, and why not bring up the "but what about" to the riot poster, as you did for the identicle points that I had given you?

Unless you're implying,

Quote:
This entire time you were arguing that the Rakkor would get no respect from the Noxians, because something about never taking land, or air bombardments and gas attack or something.
That you wanted to further a discussion but didn't really bother to read the people who took time to reply to you to answer your questions, just skimming over them lightly, missing significant chunks of information. Shame on you if that's the case. But, you're not implying that, right?