The Jungler's Plight

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Mageinta Warrior

Senior Member

07-14-2012

Nowadays it seems very common to blame the jungler for you losing your lane. No doubt these people never play jungle or else they would know that it's not the jungler's fault YOU lost YOUR lane. Let me shed some light on the situation on why you're "not getting ganks".

1. You're pushed.

Distance to their tower
0m>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2000m
-----|-----------------------------------------------
0% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>100%
Probability of successful gank

(Skill does apply. Probability is only relative)

As you can see, when you are closer to their tower, the chances of the gank being successful drop. Why would the jungler take time out of his gold/exp farm to gank when it's not liable to work? The needs of the team outweigh the need for you to kill their tower at 6 minutes.

Distance to you tower
0m>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2000m
-----|-----------------------------------------------
0% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>100%
Probability of their jungler successful ganking

The same scale applies to their jungler as well. So while you push, you set yourself up for THEIR jungler. Keep the lane in the middle if you can, and when your jungle starts working his way up, let them push.

2. You keep getting ganked

Look bud, it's a GAME. You think they're not going to try to win? As long as you don't die when they gank, it's not too bad. When their jungler is in a lane, it gives the other lanes a chance to push. So consider yourself a sacrifice for the greater good. If their jungler is camping your lane, that's actually a GOOD thing because it means that your jungler can abuse that camp and counter-jungler/gank the other lanes a little more securely

3. "You only ganked once"

Ganking is situational. You need to understand that you are ONE of THREE lanes. The jungler cannot gank all the lanes at once unless they happen to be Karthus. If I'm ganking bottom, don't tell me to come top to you (and I say top because you guys at top are the ones that complain about no ganks the most), I promise you if I get the carry a double, it's gonna be a lot better for all of us than if I get you one kill. (When you get the carry a double, that's 2 kills and 4 assists (assuming the support helped) which is a lot more gold than 1 kill and 1 assist). In addition, should my gank be successful at bot lane, we can secure dragon, which picks you up 190 gold. So don't complain. If you're complaining about this in bot lane, they're probably warding. I usually come in behind wards if I can but if they ward dragon that's pretty tricky. Supports should be buying pinks as well as greens. Oracle is a huge gold dump early game and that's pretty hard to pick up if you're not ahead.

So, as you can see, the jungler has a pretty big job and they kinda control the early game. So next time you die at top because you overextend, it's not the jungler's fault. It's your fault.


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Riév

Junior Member

07-14-2012

I wish I could add more positive rating to this.


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DonnFirinne

Senior Member

07-15-2012

Too bad the problem causers won't ever listen


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Haen

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Senior Member

07-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mageinta Warrior View Post
Nowadays it seems very common to blame the jungler for you losing your lane. No doubt these people never play jungle or else they would know that it's not the jungler's fault YOU lost YOUR lane. Let me shed some light on the situation on why you're "not getting ganks".

1. You're pushed.

Distance to their tower
0m>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2000m
-----|-----------------------------------------------
0% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>100%
Probability of successful gank

(Skill does apply. Probability is only relative)

As you can see, when you are closer to their tower, the chances of the gank being successful drop. Why would the jungler take time out of his gold/exp farm to gank when it's not liable to work? The needs of the team outweigh the need for you to kill their tower at 6 minutes.

Distance to you tower
0m>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2000m
-----|-----------------------------------------------
0% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>100%
Probability of their jungler successful ganking

The same scale applies to their jungler as well. So while you push, you set yourself up for THEIR jungler. Keep the lane in the middle if you can, and when your jungle starts working his way up, let them push.

2. You keep getting ganked

Look bud, it's a GAME. You think they're not going to try to win? As long as you don't die when they gank, it's not too bad. When their jungler is in a lane, it gives the other lanes a chance to push. So consider yourself a sacrifice for the greater good. If their jungler is camping your lane, that's actually a GOOD thing because it means that your jungler can abuse that camp and counter-jungler/gank the other lanes a little more securely

3. "You only ganked once"

Ganking is situational. You need to understand that you are ONE of THREE lanes. The jungler cannot gank all the lanes at once unless they happen to be Karthus. If I'm ganking bottom, don't tell me to come top to you (and I say top because you guys at top are the ones that complain about no ganks the most), I promise you if I get the carry a double, it's gonna be a lot better for all of us than if I get you one kill. (When you get the carry a double, that's 2 kills and 4 assists (assuming the support helped) which is a lot more gold than 1 kill and 1 assist). In addition, should my gank be successful at bot lane, we can secure dragon, which picks you up 190 gold. So don't complain. If you're complaining about this in bot lane, they're probably warding. I usually come in behind wards if I can but if they ward dragon that's pretty tricky. Supports should be buying pinks as well as greens. Oracle is a huge gold dump early game and that's pretty hard to pick up if you're not ahead.

So, as you can see, the jungler has a pretty big job and they kinda control the early game. So next time you die at top because you overextend, it's not the jungler's fault. It's your fault.
1. To some degree as a jungler, you have to learn how/when to properly turret dive. That doesn't mean people saying omg gank when they're sitting under their opponents turret all day aren't annoying, but if they're poking them down, I still try to come around behind and use the minion waves to go in under turret. Of course some of this also depends on which jungler you are. Mundo turret dive, rawr!

2. Ganks are going to be successful. Too many junglers I see use the excuse, ward and you don't die. If wards prevented ganks entirely, pros wouldn't jungle. I ward, I still get killed on ganks sometimes. It happens. I'm not even mad if the enemy camps my lane as long as my jungler takes advantage of it. Go, steal their red, steal their blue, and at the very least, you better snowball another lane. Because the enemy jungler turned my winning lane into a losing one, you need to go do the same somewhere else.

In closing, yes, the jungler does get blamed more often then he is getting credit for. I agree that too often I see no jungler interference in the lane and someone complains that its the jungler's fault they're losing their lane. No bro, its not. You lost your lane. Jungler is a helping tool, not a magical winning machine. If you're down 20 cs to 80 at the 10 minute mark, its not because the jungler is bad.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

07-15-2012

Let's also keep in mind that for every good jungler, there's just as many, if not more, bad junglers. Sometimes the enemy doesn't have a jungler, so while I don't mind attempting to hold 2v1 in top lane, I do expect that our jungler should pay some extra attention to top lane (because without him, it's very difficult to not lose 2v1, depending on the matchup), yet time and time again, I have these cases where I do as best I can to hold top lane, yet as soon as top turret falls (I've been under my turret the whole time, perfect time for a gank that never came), the JUNGLER is the first to blame me for losing the turret.

In fact very often (and I'm talking pre-30 normals here for what it's worth), I see junglers who straight ignore the lanes. They just roam through the jungle killing the jungle creeps because they have this vague understanding that the importance of a jungler is more experience and gold for the team, and tend to not realize that winning the game is about killing the Nexus.

So, to FlyingElf's point about 20 to 80 cs, sure you lost your lane. But if both teams have 4 people in lane and 1 in jungle, if the jungle never shows up in that lane, it may not be his fault that you LOST the lane, but it is his fault that he didn't show up and push it back to neutral.

There are going to be bad champion match ups. That's just how it goes. And it's a team game. It's not 1v1 top lane, 1v1 mid, 2v2 bottom lane, and a jungler on each team that comes and goes as he pleases. It's a TEAM game. You win or lose as a team. No matter how much any one of those members wants to blame any other of those team members for the loss, all 5 players get the loss on their record.

So yea, if you're down 80-20 CS at the 10 minute mark, yes, YOU lost your lane. In an ideal situation, the other team is bad, and all three of your lanes are up 80-20 CS and pushing their turret at the 10 minute mark and the jungler doesn't have to help any of the lanes. But how often do we see that? Fact of the matter is, if the jungler sees that someone is losing their lane and he does NOTHING to assist that lane, then it IS a little bit his fault. Whether he stayed in that lane to help, or took over another lane so someone else could go help, it doesn't matter.

But having one lane shut down from farm 100% defeats the purpose of having a jungle. Remember, the point of a jungle is to have FOUR gold/xp streams. If, for whatever reason, a player is losing their lane so bad that they can't even farm, then you're back down to just three sources of gold/xp and you have a turret at risk. The jungler can come assist that lane, push it back to three sources, and secure your team's turret.


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Mageinta Warrior

Senior Member

07-15-2012

There is no real side to this. It's more like this conglomerate of jungler preference. The jungler has such a huge impact in the early game, and if they don't abuse that impact, then you're gonna be set back for teamfight phase.

There are all kinds of junglers, I can only speak about myself. Some junglers (like me) are willing to sacrifice a lane to make the other two stronger. If bot is losing, as long as they don't die we can let the tower go, pull the support (are you helping him last hit or what?) and let the carry farm. I'm reasonably sure that you can make up a bad lane phase with teamfights. As long as the lane didn't give up too many kills (3+) in their losing, you can catch up. To me, the lane phase is only the precursor to the teamfight. You get 2-3 items, then in teamfights you actually win the game. When you lose 1 lane you still have 2 other lanes that can win. In the words of my man Meatloaf, "Two out of Three Ain't Bad".

But then again, I r nub.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

07-15-2012

Well, it depends on whether or not you're actually winning those other two lanes. You should just let a lane fall because the other two aren't falling. I feel the jungle should only sacrifice one lane if it means you're winning or better in the other two.

I suppose that trading lanes is an okay option IF the lane that you're winning is middle (as that seems to me to be the most important lane).


And don't get me wrong. I understand a lot of what you're saying in the original post. A great jungler can certainly help to win the match. But if he's not great, he CAN cost you the match.

It's not even always a matter of whether or not your jungler is better than their jungler. It's about lane match-ups. Until the junglers come out and start ganking, it's essentially 4v4. So even if you have the best jungler in the world on your team, if their 4 are better than your 4 and your jungler is neglecting a lane, you've lost the match.


It's not always the jungler's fault, and the jungler gets blamed for a lot of things that aren't his fault and doesn't get credit for some things that he deserves credit for, I agree. But I see a lot of people who want to fill the jungle role just because that's the current meta, and because they don't know how to jungle, we lost the match. Period.

A bad jungler will lose a match for you quicker than bad laners.


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X plicit 1

Senior Member

07-15-2012

jungle is tricky; it helps when your team doesn't suck the big one but. someone said it's on you to know when and where to be. granted at the same time your bot lane shouldnt be pinging like crazy saying "OMG HE HAS 100 HP LEFT U SUCK JUNGLER" when you're top side of the map clearing buffs/jungle or ganking other lanes, vice versa for other lanes. it's a team game, it takes a positive effort from every member. also as a jungler myself i can tell you this, if i come to gank for you and you walk away from the engagement and say "you should have pinged", fine you get ONE of those. the second time i come to gank for you and you afk farm and don't back me don't expect me to come gank for you again any time soon. we all have the same mini map


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Haen

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-15-2012

Pogo, you bring up a good point about the matchups. Which is why if I play in a solo lane like mid, I hate picking champ first, but if you do get countered, you have to discuss what you're going to do about it. If I'm playing Karth and they pick Leblanc, I'm not winning that lane. Now we can either decide that hey guys I'll do my best and not feed LB, but try to keep loses to a minimum, or we can aggressively gank it and try to turn it around.

The big problem in LoL is that nobody looks at the big picture. I'm not mad if I lose a lane because the jungler didn't help. If the enemy jungler camps my lane all game and gets a couple kills, but because of that our jungler gets our bot lane ridiculously fed, awesome. I don't need to have the best score on our team to feel good about a win. A win is a win. But everyone is so concerned with themselves, that they don't realize, this is a team game. What happens in one lane is by no means the whole game and thats where you see the difference between good and great junglers. They understand the whole scope of the game. They understand where they need to be, when, and why.


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Level12Magikarp

Junior Member

08-13-2012

The thing that bugs me the most, if I'm wrong in feeling this let me know, is when either 2 or every lane is losing, and it's my fault we lost. Like I just had a game as jungle malph (I am a **** malphite, but whatever) and every lane lost, and I was blamed.

I mean, I can't be everywhere at once, and I still need to keep up with levels by jungling not camping warded bushes or trying ganks on people who ahead, maybe I can pull it off, but while I am, the other two lanes died and I get screamed at for "not ganking" and was blamed for the loss.

I mean, at that point, even if I camped one lane until it was neutral again, the other two would have lost harder, and I would be under leveled. *sigh* people these days, need to at least jungling