AP champs always getting nerfed (except annie of course)

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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by dynastar13 View Post
OP is correct though. AD will always be more powerful because they can auto attack more often than an AP champ can cast their spells.

The fact that most AP champs have to aim their skills and also the fact that they are useless if they build defense only helps to further their inferior posistion as champions.

Lifesteal is also more sustainable than spell vamp as once an AP champ has unloaded they skills onto an AD champ they can simply heal the damage and the AP champ is left useless until their spells come back off cooldown.

Has always frustrated me that RIOT prefers to reward mindless autoattacking as opposed to the use of spells which require skill and practice to aim.
Over a period of ten seconds, sure, but most mages have enough damage and CC to kill that AD about 2x over before they can even attack unless they are severely underleveled/starved.

Even over ten seconds Ryze and Cassiopeia will give you a damn close fight for the number of attacks late game, and Orianna will beat you straight up (if your name is not Twitch), how? By weaving her passive-empowered AAs in between ability casts, that's how.

Penultimately, yes, lifesteal is generally stronger than spell vamp, but mages usually kill ADCs in <2 seconds, 100-0%, whereas ADC's are usually shooting for about 3-5 seconds to kill someone until very late game.

Finally, ADCs, because of their general lack of burst (GTFO Graves, no one likes you and your pants-on-head ****** design) and needing to stay on someone for several seconds to kill them instead of just taking a one-shot pot-shot for their life, rely much more heavily on being positioned properly so that they themselves cannot be pot-shotted by a burst champion/assasin/other ADC. It is in no way shape or form that they require less skill, if anything, towards mid game/end of laning, they require the most skill of any champion to continue feeding and take control of the game in a period where they are still at somewhat of a disadvantage to almost every other champion in the game, unless they are quite well fed.


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Xalthorn

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10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by Galifrey View Post
Good points. I'm not saying mages should win, but they should at least stand a chance at surviving long enough for a team member to come to their aid. In most cases they are SO squishy they die in seconds if the AD champ gets close enough. Even a ranged AD champ, because Attack Damage itself is much stronger than Ability Power, when really they should be on the same level damage-wise, just in different ways... 1 point of AD and 1 point of AP should be equal all things even (no armor, no magic resist etc...) The way this game is built it seems 2 points of AD are equal to 1 point of AP. This is the point I am trying to make.
As far as your AP/AD should have a 1:1 ratio theory goes I feel it's worth mentioning that AP is cheaper per point than AD, and Armor is cheaper per point than MR. Therefore if 1 AD = 1 AP then AP would be the early, mid and late-game dps of the team, now that's far from balanced.

A major problem you seem to be having is overgeneralising "AD" for you see, there are actually 2 major kinds of AD and they work completely differently (Blowing your mind right?) ok so as a simple breakdown of these roles is as follows:

1. The AD Carry :- These guys are ranged, they hurt a lot, but they also get hurt really easily. Now in a "toe-to-toe" 1v1 on equal footing these guys should be easy, your burst is faster so you should win because they're generally gonna be 1 combo to kill. If they catch you while on CD you're in trouble, but that wasn't what your post was about, so I'll leave you with a simple strategy:

If you're spells are up, faceroll him, if they're down back away from him they generally aren't very fast.

2. The bruiser :- okay, these guys seem to be the ones you're most concerned with. They're built with this perfect balance, they have just enough defence to survive an initial burst and just enough AD to knock down a target. The problem for them however is they only have just enough defence to deal with 1 target, and just enough damage to deal with 1 target. So their worst nightmare is, a buddy! simple as that. "but how is the ability to beat anyone 1v1 balanced?" someone has to be the best at 1v1, and being able to deal enough damage to 1 target and take enough damage to survive 1 target doesn't make you much of an asset when there's another 4 running around. A simple strategy when dealing with them as a mage is:

If alone; Stun and run, you want nothing to do with him. If with a friend (preferably your own AD carry) hit him with all you got, provided your buddy does the same, your bruiser friend should go down without achieving very much of anything.


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by Extremeasaurus View Post
I didn't know building zhonya's was building armor at the expense of damage.
I know, right? It's only like 100 AP and an active that can quite often keep you alive until your burst/CC comes back online, along with, who would have guessed, a pile of armor, how useful!


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galifrey View Post
Good points. I'm not saying mages should win, but they should at least stand a chance at surviving long enough for a team member to come to their aid. In most cases they are SO squishy they die in seconds if the AD champ gets close enough. Even a ranged AD champ, because Attack Damage itself is much stronger than Ability Power, when really they should be on the same level damage-wise, just in different ways... 1 point of AD and 1 point of AP should be equal all things even (no armor, no magic resist etc...) The way this game is built it seems 2 points of AD are equal to 1 point of AP. This is the point I am trying to make.
So I wonder why almost all of them have stuns, snares, uber slows, or repositions (knocks, etc.) with a duration of a couple of seconds?

OH WAIT!


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by Galifrey View Post
You're incorrect on that too. Just because you use the commonly accepted cliche build, doesn't mean it is the only acceptable build to use. There are many AP items / combinations to use specifically to play to different characters strengths. Just beacuse I don't go and use someone elses build like you do doesn't mean I'm doing it wrong, it just means I choose to look for something different that EVERYONE else isn't doing.
We're talking about Leblanc man, you can't build her AD, and building her with a ton of armor or mana regen or life steal and not maxed-the-****-out-AP makes her utterly unable to do her job early game of snowballing to hell, and her job late game of surprise exploding people in between her longish assassin/mage CDs.


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by TheLonelyPhox View Post
i really really REALLY think you dont understand at all what this game is about. its a team game.
Yep, he's basically a "Mid or I feed" *Locks Teemo* kind of guy.


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by TR3NDKILLER View Post
Xin doesn't have a knife, he has a giant tip (...and a spear behind it). That will probably be enough to chop your silly cloth armored mage self in half in one swing, killing you instantly. You can't possibly do any more damage than instant death, at most you can match it.

Example overruled.

AP champs are strongest during mid to early late game, once late game comes in full swing for an AD champion, they're supposed to be stronger. By this time, if you didn't use your previous advantage to create an advantage, you have to deal with it. Not to mention, Xin falls off dramatically late game due to no reliable escapes. You shouldn't be dieing to him unless you get caught, and in which case, it's not the "balance's" fault anyway
Yep, Xin pretty much gets stabbed in the head and stops the blade with his bare hand in his interview. He was also an undefeated gladiator in Noxus that the Noxians were basically trying to get rid of by pitting against 300 opponents (s****er) before J4 rescued him. You can't expect someone like that to just flop over and die when lulu casts -Help! Pix!- on them and then sneezes a couple of times.

You can expect someone like that to scream in pain and envy, however, if you happen to call in your friendly neighborhood Ryze to deal with them... you, know, that mage who builds all armor(attack speed reduction)+Mana and still does great damage? Yeah, Xin is one of those rare attack-speed champions...


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kavinh the third

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

syndra got buffed because she was too weak, and the example u used of zyra is absurd pretty much everyone agrees except the people who play her that she was broken upon release she had 3 ccs 2 of which are aoe as well as having absurd dps to the point that her 2 plants would out dps a xin so yeah she got the nerf she deserved it'd be the equivalent of u saying heimerdinger was balanced if his turrets had perma slow and taunt at level 1 and had a 3 second cooldown.


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

10-06-2012

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Originally Posted by kavinh the third View Post
syndra got buffed because she was too weak, and the example u used of zyra is absurd pretty much everyone agrees except the people who play her that she was broken upon release she had 3 ccs 2 of which are aoe as well as having absurd dps to the point that her 2 plants would out dps a xin so yeah she got the nerf she deserved it'd be the equivalent of u saying heimerdinger was balanced if his turrets had perma slow and taunt at level 1 and had a 3 second cooldown.
Ehh, not quite that bad, at least, not as bad as release Xin (turnabout, bro), but she was pretty broken, she had strong burst, excellent mana costs, massive DoT, Massive multiple CCs, and was extremely difficult to successfully gank, she's pretty close to balance now though.


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anu mara

Senior Member

10-06-2012

AP does have the advantage they have the tendancy to be able to far more clever. Basically your AP can adapt. An AP has skills that are for attacks AND utility, where as an AD skills are normally one purpose(unlike the handful of things I could get with zyra's E).