Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Creative Design AMA: Katarina, the Sinister Blade

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Requine

Member

08-11-2012

I think that this bio just feels like it takes place in a vacuum. No one is named. The stain on Katarina's family honor or how she addresses it is never addressed (who questioned her? was her father missing at this point? did this affect cassiopeia? did katarina miss out on anything? did she join the league of legends to make up for it? she had a scar on her eye, did she have any other injuries? did she kill the general? who hired her? who was the general, an ionian or a demacian?)

it feels disconnected from valoran, a little diorama of props off in the distance from anything


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RiotRaven

Sr. Creative Designer

08-11-2012

Quote:
TheMeta88:
1. Why do you make her sound so....preppy? "free spirited" what? In her original lore she sounds like a bad ass. A woman growing up in a restrictive militaristic soceity. At birth she was meant to birth and nurture strong men for the Noxian military. But instead she decided to take up her fathers blades and carve a new path.


A one-dimensional badass. The original Kat lore is basically that she grew up in a military household, picked up knives, likes to kill people, and did some stuff.

She is still a badass in the new lore. We chose to remove the second-class status of women that was implied in the earlier versions. We want our female characters to be strong and independent. She also still grows up in a militaristic society and is trained in blades from a young age. She is also still a killer by trade.

Quote:
2. In her original lore she is competent! Do all the new lore HAVE to involve the "protagonist" losing at some point? Shyv lost her dad, Fiora her...dad..sort of..huh. Katarina also sort of loses her dad. You don't even mention her family name in the new lore! Are you burying the old lore? Are you trying to ignore General Du Couteau? Anyways, she targets the wrong guy and because of that Noxian soldies get crushed. Her and her family are dishonored so she goes leaping into combat and gets her scar. A nice touch. But a diamond in a pile of ****. I of course mean the scar. So now she goes to the League to prove that her and her family are not to be trifled with? Again...Fiora? I even notice this in Rengar's lore. A hunter at the top of the food chain. He fights a very powerful foe and for the most part loses. Now he joins the league to continue hunting powerful prey to fix his injured pride? Really! oi.


Protagonists do not have to "lose" in their new lore. They need to have a defining moment that forges them into the heroes they are today. In some cases, the defining moment isn't a pleasant one, as so many aren't.

We are not trying to ignore her family. We are trying to focus on Katarina, not the Du Couteau family. She does not join the League to prove anything. She is Noxian assassin who learned through mistake who and what she really is.

Yes, there are changes to the new lore from the old lore. Just like our game, our characters are growing up and "leveling up," becoming more real and more suitable for use as characters beyond the MOBA.

Quote:
3. You claim to want the new Lores to have new relationships yet you litterally remove ALL of them in her new one. No garen, and no Dad. Why couldn't the "prominent soldier" have been Garen and he lives instead of dieing. Being another champion it is fitting that he survives her blade right? Also why cut out her dad? Again trying to cover it up? Trying to bury the old lore when you can? I don't like it.


If we focused on Katarina's relationships in this bio, we'd have to talk about her dad, her sister Cassiopeia, Talon, Garen, and possibly Sion. There wouldn't be much space left to talk about her. Relationships are also maturing between characters. We are not eliminating them – they will just appear elsewhere.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RiotRaven

Sr. Creative Designer

08-11-2012

Quote:
Zerglinator:
OK, First, the classic icebreaker: What does Katarina think of Yordles?


I suspect that Katarina doesn't have much reason to think of yordles. As a Noxian, she's concerned about the strength of those around her, and if a yordle displays true strength (however that manifests) she could respect him or her.

Quote:
Next, does she ever clash with Draven over skill with throwing bladed weaponry?


Draven's ego leads him to clash with everyone from time to time. He does have difficulty believing that the world doesn't revolve around him.

Quote:
Where does Katarina's Loreal-powered Red hair come from? Her mother or her father? Cassiopeia doesn't seem to have it...


I would think it comes from her mother. Cassiopeia is so changed now that who knows what her original hair color was.

Quote:
How does she relate to Talon? The answer had better be either rival, love interest, or both.


Actually the answer is different. Talon was taken in by the Du Couteau family and she regards Talon as a colleague and, in some ways, a little brother. However, she also treats him like an emotional punching bag from time to time.

Quote:
How does she relate to Garen? The answer had better be both.


Garen is a military leader and soldier and Katarina is an assassin. They aren't really rivals, as their roles are different. However, there is a romantic connection between the two, from times gone by. We are committed to preserving that.

Quote:
How does she relate to Fiora? The answer had better be either rival, love interest, or both.


Love interest? Katarina doesn't swing that way.

Again, Katarina is an assassin and Fiora is a duellist. They come from different worlds. However, given their personalities, I could easily see a rivalry in there, where their paths to cross in a meaningful way.

Quote:
Did Cassiopeia and she get along well as kids?


The Du Couteau family is pretty tightly knit. As children, I could see Kat and Cass getting along. However, sisters often grow apart as they mature.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RiotRaven

Sr. Creative Designer

08-11-2012

Quote:
xXIskanderXx:
ups in my previous post i forgot to write my question here it goes:
was the objective of the new lore to change katarinas character and her history?
i think that question would answer a lot of QQ about the change, if the answer is yes then the QQ is unjustified and instead they should QQ about why they created a new champion with the body of the old Katarina, and i expect some new katarina dialogs because the old ones wouldnt match the new lore.
If the answer is no then you guys really missed the mark on the new lore because it really changed katarinas history and now it feels like a whole new champion with a different personality.


The objective of the new lore was to evolve Katarina, and bring her more to life. In that, there have been changes.

Think of it like the way Marvel and DC changed their characters to bring them current and evolve them into more suitable forms for their movies. Tony Stark doesn't have a mechanical heart. Thor is not cursed to be Donald Blake and carry Mjolnir as a cane. Batman doesn't have a young ward and the Joker isn't a weird guy who fell into a vat of chemicals.

This is a different version of the Kat that was there before, but it's still Kat. It's just a Kat that has dimension and a character whom we can tell stories about. The old Kat was a more an archetype or caricature, because that's all we needed from our characters at that time. Things have changed and we have new creative strategies. This evolution of Kat is in line with those creative strategies.

And we are trying to preserve who she was. There are some things, like certain relationships, missing from this bio. That does not mean that they are gone. That just means they'll appear elsewhere.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Panzerfaust

Emissary of the League

08-11-2012

Quote:
Eph289:
Is this a subtle dig at RiotRunaan and Kitae, or are you aiming higher at Tryndamere and Ryze? :P


I think Morello would say it's a case of 'get people smarter than you and let them do their thing.'


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PKPikmin

Senior Member

08-11-2012

This is more of a lore as a whole question, I'm not sure it goes here, but I'll try anyways.

All of the relationships that you are cutting out to focus on the character, will they be recapped or revisited in some way when you finally create the successor to the JoJ?

Edit: Looking at your posts again this question's answer is obvious. Nothing to see here.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Urbaknight

Senior Member

08-11-2012

@RiotRaven

Thank you for ignoring EVERY SINGLE ONE of my posts


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RiotRaven

Sr. Creative Designer

08-11-2012

Quote:
Malcoire:
The old lore depicted Katarina as a highly trained soldier who cannot afford to fail - being precise, expeditive and highly effective is something that is to be expected from a Noxian military, after all. It seemed to me that, as events unfolded, she became the kind of person that placed her feelings second to her duties. She was a cold woman, because she couldn't afford to be anyway else. Not on the battlefield, not when her father dissapeared. This created an interesting conflict - she was loyal and devoted, and we all keep wondering what her character feels behind that huge wall of cold bloodedness she built to perform well.

The new lore depicts her as someone who is highly trained, yet lacks that emotional barrier. This might make the character more relatable (to an extent), but it does beg the question - How did she become such a great assassin if she's "passionate" and impulsive? The new lore (I think) tries to explain that it cost her dearly (thus the scar) and we have to assume that she has learnt her lesson, but still... from what I've read, most people feel like this background just does not match the image that we've had of Katarina for so long. How do you relate this new origin to the characteristic personality that the community was so fond of?


That's interesting. When we began to re-examine Katarina as a character, we took a look at who she was. We didn't find a simple cold-blooded killer who puts her duties before her feelings all the time standard archetype to be a compelling character. Plus, it's been done so many times. Instead, we looked at this awesome character, who in all of her art and actions seems to bleed a fiery passion for who she is and what she does. That continues to keep her lethal, as her passion for her duty drives her to be the Sinister Blade – which is a reputation by her foes, by the way, and not a self description. That passion also drives her to deep relationships, particularly with her family. It also introduces an important complication – that same passion leads her to desire things that are in conflict with who she has chosen to be. Passionate and fiery does not necessarily equal sloppy and impulsive, particularly in mature characters.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Urbaknight

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
RiotRaven:
That's interesting. When we began to re-examine Katarina as a character, we took a look at who she was. We didn't find a simple cold-blooded killer who puts her duties before her feelings all the time standard archetype to be a compelling character. Plus, it's been done so many times. Instead, we looked at this awesome character, who in all of her art and actions seems to bleed a fiery passion for who she is and what she does. That continues to keep her lethal, as her passion for her duty drives her to be the Sinister Blade – which is a reputation by her foes, by the way, and not a self description. That passion also drives her to deep relationships, particularly with her family. It also introduces an important complication – that same passion leads her to desire things that are in conflict with who she has chosen to be. Passionate and fiery does not necessarily equal sloppy and impulsive, particularly in mature characters.


Stop ignoring my posts about the removal of lore!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thazdoom

Senior Member

08-11-2012

You keep suggesting that the old lore painted Kat as one dimensional (though I disagree), even if we grant that it does, you still close down more opportunities for people to be interested in the lore than you open. People have already pointed out that the bio seems to appear in a vacuum, as nobody has a name except Kat, so I won't rehash this - but it's important. The reason I disagree that the old bio makes her one dimensional is that it gives her focus. The quick champion bio is not the place to tell a full story of their background.. (hence why you folks created the judgements?) it gives a picture of what's interesting about this character.. and implying that they have connections to the rest of the world and it's people make them interesting.

I am getting the sense from most of the comments, that they were more interested in how the champions of the league fit into the world, rather than a complete picture of who they are. After all, if you keep writing the character, this will become apparent. 'Don't tell me who they are, show me' is a pretty common theme in good writing. I think you're going to have real difficulty getting the background picture you folks are looking to give in the space that you've got for the bio. It's only going to lead to more of these strong reactions to what you're doing.

Look... this isn't working. There isn't a lot of gain in re-writing the champions lore. Instead, think hard about the upcoming champions and give them connections (Diana? well received for a reason) and move on to telling more stories in the context of the league of legends world. Team up with the art department to do stories with a bit of that comic- style art, and you'd have winning combo to convey visual and story lore.