Morello is against the idea of more maps. Lets get to the bottom of this.

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Arechon Gend

Senior Member

08-07-2012

The other night, Morello made a post that is disturbing to anyone who, like myself, feel that League is in desperate need of more maps. He then went on to use an invalid argument as an example to why he feels the way he does.

First of all, I want to say, I have a ton of respect for Morello, I always love seeing his posts on Champion design, and even when I disagree with him, I have to admit he makes good points. That doesn't seem to apply to map design however. He seems to like level discussion, and doesn't really strike me as the type who would mind, or take it offensively that I'm calling him out on this, and I don't mean it that way, I'm simply addressing my concern.

Here is the post mentioned earlier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
New maps are tough - from a legitimate competitive standpoint (IE World Finals), I don't believe it's a good idea to release additional core 5v5 maps. CTF is a mess in any game except Tribes, TFC or Quake 3 which the whole game is about movement, so I'd be very against that. :P

I've talked about these issues in other threads and don't want to derail too much here, but I'll say this; competitive sports have "1 map" and it never gets boring (and in fact have "1 meta"). Maps can provide fun variety, but there's nothing that tells me that multiple maps make for a better spectator and player sport.
The bolded point is false. Competitive sports have a lot of maps, depending on the sport. I'm not even referring to sports such as paintball, or cross country which have a virtual limitless number of "maps", I'm actually talking about the sports we regularly talk about and follow our favorite teams and players through, football, basketball, hockey, soccer, and the absolute best example, baseball. In the MLB, no 2 fields have the exact same dimensions, some are deeper, some have taller walls, and some have odd quirks in them. The Green Monster can only be found in Boston's Fenway Park, where in Houston they actually have a hill in center field. Some parks are pitchers's parks, while others are hitter's parks. This still isn't even taking into effect weather patterns. These differences can and do make the difference in a lot of games played, and do in fact change the meta of baseball.

The manager may decide to alter the lineup in order to try and gain an advantage from some of the differences from field to field, switching a left handed hitter for a right handed hitter for example, or moving a power guy to a different spot due to playing in a hitter's park when they would normally play in a pitcher's park when playing at home.

These changes could also alter the type of pitch the battery decide to use, or shift the defense uses, or the part of the field the hitter attempts to hit to. If all of that doesn't reflect a change to the "meta" from field to field, I don't know what does. Looking at it this way, the MLB has a full 30 maps vs LoL's 4, all 30 in the MLB are considered competitive, where only 1 is in League.

Even in other sports where the dimensions are much more standardized, there still may be difference from field to field, or court to court. For instance, is it indoors, or outdoors Grass or turf? And at times other quirks may come into play, like the low hanging trons at the new Cowboys stadium. Even weather patterns must be considered to a certain extent.

For me personally, I like tuning in when my Atlanta Braves are on the road, to see how they change their strategy to not only counter the opposing team, but also the change in scenery.

I just think that League has way too much potential to just throw away by not introducing new maps. Runeterra has way too many interesting places like Icathia, and Bilgewater to just ignore within the game itself. So I ask, please don't ignore the world League of Legends is set in, expand the list of locations that can be visited in game.


#MoreFieldsOfJustice.



Edit: Major thanks to Xypherous for sharing his insight.

Edit 2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
My apologies if I haven't convinced you of my point or if you're confused about what I've been saying or if what I'm saying simply makes no sense to you. I will say that a lot of these thoughts are my personal thoughts and thus you have every right to disagree with them.
I'm not convinced, and do still disagree, but I appreciate your effort, and I admit you do have valid points, I just don't see that they outweigh the positives of adding new gameplay and expanding the world. Depth comes in a variety of forms, and it really depends on the player (or designer) as to which form of depth is most appreciated, or most wanted.

Edit 3: I just posted some thoughts on page 88, thought I'd quote them here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arechon Gend View Post
I understand the "more combinations" argument for making new champions and items to make SR deeper, I do, it makes perfect sense, but sadly with over 100 champions already in the game, and a very nice item selection as it is, this just doesn't seem significant enough in adding new depth anymore. I very seriously doubt they will ever change the physical layout of SR, and any stat changes to towers or jungle creeps that they have made in the past, at least at my elo, haven't ever seemed that interesting, and on the opposite side, the pros seem to take absolutely no time to adjust (maybe there is some odd place in the mid level elo range where it seems significant?). On top of that, reskins almost seem to break Xypherous' own argument of variety for the sake of variety, since they add 0 new gameplay depth whatsoever. I'm sorry, but the only solution I see is to introduce entirely new maps.
Edit 4: Please keep bumped, seems that there are still a lot of unanswered questions concerning the specifics of the stance Morello and Xypherous have taken, and where certain lines are drawn.

Edit 5: Morello's recent posts give the impression that he thinks this issue is resolved. IT ISN'T. I'd also like to point out that regardless of how things have played out thus far or will continue to play out, that I haven't and probably won't lose any respect I have for Morello, Xypherous, or any other Rioter.

Edit 6: With everyone suggesting reskins now, I felt the need to explain why it isn't quite a good enough solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arechon Gend View Post
I'm seeing this come up a lot now, and I'd first like to say that it is by no means a bad idea, it would add some variety beyond what does exist, but to steal a line from Xypherous, it really is only "variety for the sake of variety". Here are a couple reasons that they either aren't quite good enough, or have limitations.


1. They don't add new gameplay. This one is pretty big, because even with reskins, some people just wont be satisfied, they really add no new depth to gameplay, just aesthetic depth, which is something, but something that will wear off quickly.

2. Themes would be limited by lore. You couldn't have a lot of the suggestions people are making for new skins, because they don't make sense. Summoner's Rift is a location in Valoran in the lore, you can't have an exact copy of it in Shurima Desert or Bilgewater that works 100% the same mechanically within the game and not seem off. There would have to be some variance thus making them separate maps, sure you could find some way to explain them being similar enough that it doesn't effect the gameplay much, but things would have to change in a few areas, from jungle placement to what creeps are present, location of the bushes, etc.


That isn't to say that there aren't ways it can work. We all know how popular the holiday and seasonal versions of Summoner's Rift were, these work, and make sense in the lore. Xypherous also pointed out an alternative that could also be interesting. Well sorta, at least from what I read out of it



Lets say enough champs on a team were in some way affiliated with the same faction, say at least 3 or 4 of the 5, then that team's base could be decorated with flags and banners associated with that faction. Not sure if the effort would be worth it, but it could be interesting.

So again, map reskins wouldn't solve any problems, but they could add something.
It's posted as a separate thread, so please go there to discuss map skins, to keep the discussion in this thread on topic. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=29713152

Edit 7: Pinkie Pie wants to help us out.

Edits 8-9: The below quotes are in reply to some of Xypherous' posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha Q23 View Post
For me, that part will not work. The only way that would work for me if it had a new set up, new routes, and a different jungle. Like I have said about my preference, I have seen the SR type map for many years and the whole near same set up is very stale. Compairing SR to Dotas map you can see how everything is near same in lanes, jungle, river, and bases. With a few things different, (like no jungle shop, or the dragon being in SR)

It seems if you went deeper into the SR map you would need to change more than just putting another skin on it that doesn't do much more than please the eye for at least the time being. However if you were talking about maybe increasing the overall size and growing the jungle out some, maybe a few more paths that would be a good start.

It is apparent that this style of gaming mostly revolves around 5v5. Either its 3 lanes, one lane, (some custom games two lanes.) or one big circle with various points to capture on it. 5v5 is the majority of the gaming. Even though I my self prefer the 3v3 slightly different game style than 5v5 its still old.

I will say I respect you at riot for creating and working on something that you love. Hell its even cooler the fact you want to play your own creation after logging many hours working on it. That means you are passionate about your form of artwork and it does show. A lot of people expect a bit too much in a short amount of time from you. I guess they don't realize how big the player base is compared to the staff at riot. So yes many questions on the forums are going to be left unanswered. I say Riot keep it up and keep creating as long as you love doing it.

Still it would be nice to have a bit of variety. And Since my creative bone usually involves trying to figure out the fastest way to complete work so I don't have to re do it and can enjoy either gaming or hanging out with my friends. I can't really show up with a Portfolio of amazing work.

Side note, what is your stance on allowing people to create custom mode maps? Something similar to the one WC3 allowed. (I know this isn't wc3 and I am glad at that, however the best thing about that game was the create your own map/game modes to me)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamanoir View Post
There is a flaw in this line of logic which i believe has toxic repercussions, the problem is that is based entirely on the scale of the issue. Lets use the example of various size amounts of water to demonstrate what i mean. If you had the choice to play in 1000 gallons of water in a puddle one inch deep or a 1000 gallon swimming pool six feet deep i believe everyone would pick the pool. That is because as you said the variety of scenery is insufficient to compensate for the lack of depth. However if you are given the choice between a 100 square foot pool or a 1 foot by 1 foot square of ocean that leads to the bottom of Challenger deep i believe most would choose the pool since the vast majority of the depth is wasted. With League you face a similar problem if you focus on making SR extremely deep and nuanced you run the risk of boxing in the players and wasting effort, because no matter what statistical changes you have made the creep camps or the towers, or even how many champions you add after the thousandth time you have played a game on SR it is still the same map.
I have a question for any rioter, with the high demand that the player base has for new maps(as demonstrated by the near constant forum posts about it) and the extreme creativity that your fan base possesses(summoners showcase) why not issue a challenge to the players. Have them create their own maps and game types, present them to the community and developers, vote for their favorites and then have them implemented to supplement the existing maps. Everyone wins, the pro map people get more maps, the creative people get to create and be recognized for it, the developers some of the load taken off them, and riot gets great press for looking like it really wants to incorporate the fans into the development of the game.
Edit 10: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2687575 this is a good read for anyone.

Edit 12: Go vote on which you would like to see as a map. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3445834 (Updated link)


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jimmybob321

Senior Member

08-07-2012

They made proving grounds and I'm sure they won't stop there


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AmnFshn

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Yeah well, you know, a new map won't give Riot more money so it's not their priority, if it doesn't provide money, why waste time on it.

In b4 they make a new map but you have to unlock it with RP.


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smelons

Senior Member

08-07-2012

you only have one example, baseball. and MLB doesn't really have different maps, it's just different outfields.

all football has same field size
all basketball
all soccer

they all have same field, only baseball doesn't.

and real sports and gaming are whole 2 different things


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TT Dreadnaught

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Physical sports =/= Gaming sports
You dumb son


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Nevon

Senior Member

08-07-2012

If they released more 5v5 maps I personally think it would be no problem. During champ select one team gets to pick the map, while the other team would then start bans.Or they could just have it randomly select which map was to be played on.

In short: Don't even give people the option prior to entering a game which map they want to play on. You avoid a lot of problems this way, other than the bad sports who Q dodge.


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Nullbringer

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Morello didn't say he doesn't like new maps, he just said they don't add much in a MOBA in terms of e-sports (which is a great Riot concern as of now). New maps are tonnes of fun, but they aren't competitively viable.


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Gimia

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Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmybob321 View Post
They made proving grounds and I'm sure they won't stop there
Proving Grounds was already in as the original tutorial map. They just reworked it slightly.


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chumbler

Senior Member

08-07-2012

New game modes should be added (AND ACTUALLY SUPPORTED BY RIOT, RATHER THAN TOTALLY ABANDONED). New maps for existing game modes would not really do much. If the map is better, everyone plays it instead. If it's not then it gets left to rot.


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Arechon Gend

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TT Dreadnaught View Post
Physical sports =/= Gaming sports
You dumb son
That seemed like too simple an argument to make, while true, what actual difference does it make?