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Upcoming Zyra Changes

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machete21

Member

08-07-2012

What is amazing to me is that the majority of the champs that come out are always a "wee bit strong". these are champion designers why cant they balance these champs out better on release, make them come out a day or so later..this are good changes but i think its annoying to the people who put money into this game and expect to buy a good champion..its such a let down when you think you "buy what you pay for" then they nerf them..you guys have made so many champions and you still cant get the release champion stats right yet? I mean how hard can it be the majority of champions are the stats you lower the new champion to, this is just my opinion but why not make the next champion with or around the same stats..im not a game designer so i might be talking out my rear end but this seems like common sense.


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Conncept

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
ForeverLaxx:
So not only do you spend a long time trying to look up information I already knew and had taken into account, you even go so far as to misinterpret what was stated to suit your biased opinion. I'm not even going to go into why you seem to lack reading comprehension, as your method in handling yourself thus far has been less than acceptable for intelligent discourse.

Amazing.

I'm downvoting you because you're wrong. Everyone else that's downvoting you probably feels the same. I don't downvote because you disagree with me; I'm not that childish and I've had plenty of back-and-forth with reasonable people that I disagree with without pressing that little red finger. You, on the other hand, insist on attacking anyone that disagrees with you, and you insist on touting your biased opinion as some kind of factual statement on the matter. This is why I downvote you. If you want to attribute that to some kind of childish instinct because it makes you feel better, that's fine. I don't actually care that much. I'm merely informing you of why it's being pushed much like I would tell someone that the sky is cloudy despite their claims otherwise when they could simply look upwards and see that the sky is, in fact, cloudy.

You might want to stop trying to be an armchair debater. It's really not working out for you. To that end, I shant reply further, as this is entirely fruitless and you cannot be convinced of your error.


Still looking for where you address the fact that THE rioter who designed the champion in question has stated, blatantly, that you are wrong and the champion is anti-fun.

Nope, not there.

I may not be the best debater in the world, but I can actually address the issue instead of falling back on critiquing my opponents argumentative skills.

So, do you have any rebuttal pertaining to the issue, or are you as clueless as your posts indicated? Though I don't know why I'm asking, retreating with your tail between your legs, no counter-argument, and not having presented a stitch of the 'evidence' you claim to have makes the answer fairly obvious.


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Chimeraa

Junior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Momento Morì:
Have you actually played her on live since the hotfix?

She's still good.


That's good to hear, I wasn't mad that she was nerfed, my complaint is that.champion is 2 weeks old and needs that many. Where was the testing?

These seem like a knee jerk reaction, why not a few, test for 2 MORE WEEKS, then if not in the state desired, try a few more.

I feel cheated buying a champion just to have it over nerfed 2 weeks later, then put on the schedule for rebalancing, isn't that what the test realm is for?


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Arcolyte

Recruiter

08-07-2012

Quote:
Certainlyt:

*Base movement speed reduced to 300 (from 310)
*When multiple plants attack the same target, additional plants deal 50% damage (from 75% damage)
*Grasping Roots (E) damage per level decreased to 60/95/130/165/200 (from 60/105/150/195/240)
*Stranglethorns damage reduced to 180/265/350 (from 200/300/400)
*Stranglethorns cast range reduced to 700 (from 800)


This suit of nerfs is a bit overzealous, and I cannot imagine you cannot see that.

But first lets get past what I agree with:

Plant damage nerf, should probably be closer to 40% or maybe 33%. Although that would probably decrease the 'uniqueness' of her.
Stranglethorns range reduction seems fair, its max distance is still rather large. Could even be decreased another 25-50 or the size of the AoE SLIGHTLY reduced.

Which leaves the questionable nerfs you are suggesting

Taking the full 10 move speed seems excessive, 305 should be well enough wouldn't it? can we at least agree walking her power down slowly would be less destructive than successive slow changes. It seems like there has not been nearly enough time to pick up Zyra's counter play.

Grasping Roots and Stranglethorns damage and scaling reductions. These could be fine IF there is a small AP ratio increase and the plants keep attacking a champion despite zyra's attack hitting a creep. So that the plants won't "downgrade"(re-prioritize) their target if a champion is who they last hit. Maybe a slight bump on the range of the slowing ones. The targeting is mostly for the laning phase where she is still trying to farm but get the actual damage on target that is on par with other champions.


Now my complaints about Zyra

W puts build itemization into a terrible/strange place. This is because you will get 20% free CDR eventually. This makes her reliant on blue far more than most other mages. Most mages have the option of building more than 1 CDR item without completely wasting it. Also, the majority of mana regen items also contain CDR. On top of that there are only 2 items with AP and mana, Liche Bane and RoA. 3 items with Mana and a single defensive stat.

All(nearly) mages get boots of some kind and deathcap
The logical CDR item is DFG, since anything more than 16% CDR is wasted and its burst is very useful.
The last 3 slots you have to fit health/mana/defensive AP items and there isn't a decent combination of items to fill these niches currently. It is frustrating how screwed up mage itemization is right now. The fact that her W is basically a 'useless' skill to level and not a "one point wonder" it just hinders her gameplay which was compensated for by her being SLIGHTLY stronger an she should have been. With these changings I imagine she will experience something not so different than Orianna had originally.


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TheOneMillion

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Certainlyt:
We assign almost zero power value to the passive. Its primary purpose is to smooth her experience. If you are doing very well, you'll almost never use it; if you are doing poorly, it will give you something to feel good about.

It's virtually free in terms of the budget of good stuff we can give her. Altering it would have no pay off because we are most concerned with the Zyra who is 10/2 not 2/10.


Are you saying you assign almost zero power to other champs passive as well? Because Diana's passive AS is effectively almost like not having it, since you had to make her base AS so low so she didnt start with a .9 AS, which in turn makes building AS items (something she wants) not as effective


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ForeverLaxx

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
machete21:
What is amazing to me is that the majority of the champs that come out are always a "wee bit strong". these are champion designers why cant they balance these champs out better on release, make them come out a day or so later..this are good changes but i think its annoying to the people who put money into this game and expect to buy a good champion..its such a let down when you think you "buy what you pay for" then they nerf them..you guys have made so many champions and you still cant get the release champion stats right yet? I mean how hard can it be the majority of champions are the stats you lower the new champion to, this is just my opinion but why not make the next champion with or around the same stats..im not a game designer so i might be talking out my rear end but this seems like common sense.


The players on Live vastly outnumber those that are on the Test Realm, and the majority of the people who ARE on the Test Realm aren't testing anything at all but are instead using said realm for early access to upcoming content. As you can probably figure out, this means testing is rather slow and limited, but it's still leagues better than just pure internal Riot Server testing, which is something they still do.

To your other point about "buying things just so they end up nerfed", that's the nature of any competitive (and sometimes non-competitive) multiplayer game. Changes happen, and if you're afraid of changes you might be better off playing single-games and declining any potential "balance patches" they might send out for it.


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Chimeraa

Junior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
machete21:
what is amazing to me is that the majority of the champs that come out are always a "wee bit strong". These are champion designers why cant they balance these champs out better on release, make them come out a day or so later..this are good changes but i think its annoying to the people who put money into this game and expect to buy a good champion..its such a let down when you think you "buy what you pay for" then they nerf them..you guys have made so many champions and you still cant get the release champion stats right yet? I mean how hard can it be the majority of champions are the stats you lower the new champion to, this is just my opinion but why not make the next champion with or around the same stats..im not a game designer so i might be talking out my rear end but this seems like common sense.


this!


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Sessamo

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
DivineDerivative:

She is not Eve tier and neither is Ori who I compared her to earlier. I am certainly no pro player or even competitive for that honor. I don't need to pick the best possible choice to have fun and I like learning to use the more complex champs because there are so few usable abilities on each character. I really hope that you will stick to your word to balance her if she does look a little weak in the hands of the average player now, but I really do expect the all round Ori treatment for her and am not optimistic. I'm not even mad about the cash, you guys got me. You don't always nerf the new champions but you got me with the busty plant goddess. It's like you know what I will instabuy or something.


They said she would be buffed if she was weak, not weak in the hands of the average player. Balance always hinges on high elo 5v5. I'm not sure what you mean by the Ori treatment, she's probably stronger today than she was on release, just less stifling.


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Tsugumi

Recruiter

08-07-2012

So where's the Darius nerfs?


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Chimeraa

Junior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
ForeverLaxx:
The players on Live vastly outnumber those that are on the Test Realm, and the majority of the people who ARE on the Test Realm aren't testing anything at all but are instead using said realm for early access to upcoming content. As you can probably figure out, this means testing is rather slow and limited, but it's still leagues better than just pure internal Riot Server testing, which is something they still do.

To your other point about "buying things just so they end up nerfed", that's the nature of any competitive (and sometimes non-competitive) multiplayer game. Changes happen, and if you're afraid of changes you might be better off playing single-games and declining any potential "balance patches" they might send out for it.


I'd buy this if it was a gimmick that needed fixing, something they didn't account for. NOT HER BASE NUMBERS. "We don't like that she can OMGWTFBBQ and zone control". She's not the first AP caster, they have comparisons, and she's not the first with zone control, are you telling me they couldn't compare those? I can in a few hours of test games on my own.