Upcoming Zyra Changes

First Riot Post
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FriedChickens

Member

08-07-2012

I like how there was a huge thread that Tryndamere himself posted in about communicating with the players and when the reds post this thread about balances changes it seems to be mostly flame. People will never be happy and I have no idea how you put up with it.

I for one completely agree on these changes, GJ Riot


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Drozzi

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotDissonance View Post
I won't get into it, but this is not what we're stating. Some people will succeed with Zyra, some people won't. It's not okay for you to say that we think people who are unsuccessful with some champions are bad, regardless of power level. As a personal example, I was/still am a terrible Rumble player when his win rate was similar, does this make me bad?

Good night folks, I'll try and answer any (civilized) questions tomorrow if I can, or perhaps redirect them to Roku who has a better expertise in the AP mid realm than I do.
With rumble?
Yes.

And on the topic of Zyra, I think all of these nerfs were necessary aside from the plant nerf, but what really should have been done is turn her ult from instant burst to half upfront half on knock up, or have it be delayed and do the full damage on knockup.


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mertatron

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotDissonance View Post
Hey all,

As the person who played Zyra second-most (Roku being the first) in the internal testing for these changes, here is my insight into the nerfs:

1. The nerfs were absolutely, indisputably, unequivocally NEEDED.

2. To the MS nerf: yes, this is exactly correct. We need Zyra to be in a state where she CAN be shut down / have weaknesses. This was intended from the beginning as she currently has the second lowest base HP and scaling in the game (only Anivia is lower IIRC who also has very powerful zone control, and now their movement speeds match.) Having 310 MS, 575 auto attack range paired with exceptional/highly responsive attack frames, and above average nuke ranges made her too safe both in killing power and farming capabilities (hence the damage nerf to E [or rather, nerf to its level-damage incentive]).

3.Why the nerfs? At this point in time (pre-nerf), I am guaranteed any 3 of the following 4, if not all
  1. - (Average) 200 cs by 18 minutes
  2. - A 1-3 level advantage
  3. - The ability to have untradable kills by level 4 (and even moreso at 6)
  4. - TOO safe of a team-sized AoE chunk

This does NOT mean that Zyra is "heimer/eve/pre-stealth rework" tier in strength. In fact, as it was already stated Roku (2.25k+ elo AP mid main) believes she might even still be TOO strong, and I personally believe (2.15k+ and 13-1 ranked Zyra) that I can still be just as effective in games, just now there might actually be counter play to this very strong, loaded kit. I've also personally tested some of these nerfs, and I didn't feel bad at all.

If skill was truly a factor in your (the reader's) success, then you'll notice:
  1. - Your zoning capability paired with plant play patterns are relatively unchanged
  2. - If you catch a target in a similar combo (EWQWRQ), you will still kill your target

What you no longer will have includes:
  1. - An absurd amount of collateral damage to unintended targets
  2. - High sense of safety
  3. - "Snipes" -- meaning, the enemy will actually be able to see you kill them now (shocking right?)

TL;DR

Remember, there's a difference between liking a champion for his/her/its strength and liking him/her/it for the intended/inherent game play. Being unrealized of this difference may lead to quick, emotional outlashing that quite frankly I am disappointed to see my colleagues receive. We (as a team) succeeded in making Zyra the zone control type of mage that she was intended to be -- however, we gave her a huge amount of burst in addition to the plants that should've been what her strength revolved around, and not her ability to do 1.2k+ damage on base numbers alone from a non-trade-able range. Due to a combination of Zyra's egregious nature of her current numbers, this patch being a tournament balance patch, and the overall "playing against" experience, these changes were needed.
i understand your point. but still ... how will u make people still want to play her by nerfing her so much.

look at orianna .. she isn't played much anymore ... same will happen to Zyra.

U should have made her balanced on PBE .. she stayed there for quite some time so u would have been able to see she is OP.

What I dislike .. is releasing an OP champ .. and knowing it and then nerfing her. it's not like just an adjustment .. u bring down all her kit. u shouldn't releae champs to nerf them that much after.

if it was just a change in plants, or in damage on one skill .. we could understand .. but there it's too much.

So learn from your mistakes riot ... don't release OP champs. Don't make people not wanting to play them anumore after that. I really don't want to play Zyra when her nerfs will be coming ... yes she's fun .. but to me it's just her MS nerf that killed her. she should be a lot more balanced on release.


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Brettapod

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Just reading this post, I think Riot might have over-nerfed her.


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Pointman7

Member

08-07-2012

Visiting from the future.
Zyra has a 42% win rate one month from now and isn't played even 1/10th as much.
Diana getting the nerf bat tomorrow.


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Russian

Junior Member

08-07-2012

Pretty harsh nerf. I feel she won't be viable especially late game. I guess in draft picks people can reserve a new spot for champion bans. I also like how riot gives no attention to Darius and his ridiculous face roll abilities, especially his insane Ulti refresh.

Also, Inb4 Diana QQ threads that result into a nerf thread like this.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointman7 View Post
Visiting from the future.
Zyra has a 42% win rate one month from now and isn't played even 1/10th as much.
Diana getting the nerf bat tomorrow.
Diana wont be nerft till they sold her some more i think..


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Pointman7

Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
Diana wont be nerft till they sold her some more i think..
I meant tomorrow from my future time, not this time.
Diana makes them mad dollars though, yeah.
Then they increase her cooldowns and lower her base damage and ratios.


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Korialstri

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Senior Member

08-07-2012

Thank you so much Riot, I can finally stop being afraid to go mid!

(On a side note, I really hate Zyra's passive, it gets me every time!)


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Warkeiser

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Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Brand W:
Has longer range (900 v 825)
Higher base damage
Frequently does 25% more damage (including scaling)
Procs his passive damage
Greater radius (260 v 220)
Has the same delay (Brand's is slightly less consistent in its timing due to a different scripting method)
Thanks for clearing some of that up, since the actual numbers I took were only those I could gather from the wiki.

However, I discounted the 25% bonus damage because that requires Brand to have landed an ability prior, which would mean you'd have a whole mess of variables when translating that to Zyra's plants about whether Brand or Zyra would end up having the stronger ability.

I think my point still stands that Zyra's Deadly Bloom is doing damage fairly close to Brand's Pillar of Flame (20 lower base, incalculable differences when adding in Zyra's W and Brand's E for combos) while having a significantly lower cooldown. In the time it takes Brand to drop 2 W's at level 18, Zyra can drop 5 Qs. Deadly bloom is much more forgiving despite it only having slight differences in range and radius and let's be honest, high-level play will be able to dodge both Zyra's and Brand's AoEs with the same level of difficulty.

Although at this point I'm probably drawing comparisons between champions that really shouldn't be compared. I figure that they're both mages who rely strongly on combos of abilities, one of which involves a ranged AoE skillshot nuke that gains benefit from another ability.

I just feel like Zyra gets too much bang for her buck based on the cooldowns. As if Deadly Bloom's should be 1-2 seconds longer and Rampant Growth should only be 3% CDR per level as opposed to 4%.