The true evolution

First Riot Post
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Drackus

Senior Member

06-10-2013

I still think he should just have 3 tiers, the first and second should stay the same but then he should have a third tier with one choice that is an amalgamation of all tier 2, slightly reduced stats or just increased offensive stats? Then have an on use effect which just modifies the next used ability to basically be the augmented version of the spell? So you can have any of the augmented abilities but on use. Give the item a short CD, not sure what though but it gives you alot more flexibility with the whole thing.


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RasCaelestis

Senior Member

06-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBleck View Post
Also, why does Viktor only have three fingers on his robotic hand? Does he somehow think that having less fingers is somehow an improvement? Little things like this bother me.
He also has only three fingers on his left hand too. It's the same in all three splash arts and in-game models. It doesn't bother me, but I did notice it fairly soon after I started playing Viktor.
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As for the new upgrade changes, I'm on the fence right now. The old idea had a lot of possibilities, but would be harder to implement. The new one seems a bit... I don't really know how to describe it... limiting, I guess. I understand that the current tech is not there, but would having the Hex Core have tier three 'Evolutions' -as proposed a while ago- be difficult? Instead of adding an existing item's effect, have it add a portion of another augment's abilities.

-=The Hex Core=-
The Hex Core -> Augment: Death -> Evolution: Death/Power.
(+3 AP/level) -> (+3 AP/level, + 45 AP, +30% DoT) -> (+3 AP/level, +45 AP, +30% Death Ray DoT, +15% ms after Power Transfer, +110 hp, +3 hp regen)
The Hex Core -> Augment: Death -> Evolution: Death/Gravity.
(+3 AP/level) -> (+3 AP/level, +45 AP, +30% DoT) -> (+3 AP/level, +45 AP, +30% Death Ray DoT, +15% Gravity Field cast range, +100 mana, +5% CDR, +2.5 mp regen)

The Hex Core -> Augment: Power -> Evolution: Power/Death.
(+3 AP/level) -> (+3 AP/level, + 30% ms after Power Transfer, +220 hp, +6 hp regen) -> (+3 AP/level, + 30% ms after Power Transfer, +220 hp, +6 hp regen, +22.5 AP +15% Death Ray DoT)
The Hex Core -> Augment: Power -> Evolution: Power/Gravity.
(+3 AP/level) -> (+3 AP/level, +30% ms after Power Transfer, +220 hp, +6 hp regen) -> (+3 AP/level, +30% ms after Power Transfer, +220 hp, +6 hp regen, +15% Gravity Field cast range, +100 mana, +5% CDR, +2.5 mp regen)

The Hex Core -> Augment: Gravity -> Evolution: Gravity/Death.
(+3 AP/level) -> (+3 AP/level, +30% Gravity Field cast range, +200 mana, +10% CDR, +5 mp regen) -> (+3 AP/level, +30% Gravity Field cast range, +200 mana, +10% CDR, +5 mp regen, +22.5 AP +15% Death Ray DoT)
The Hex Core -> Augment: Gravity -> Evolution: Gravity/Power.
(+3 AP/level) -> (+3 AP/level, +30% Gravity Field cast range, +200 mana, +10% CDR, +5 mp regen) -> (+3 AP/level, +30% Gravity Field cast range, +200 mana, +10% CDR, +5 mp regen, +15% ms after Power Transfer, +110 hp, +3 hp regen)

Yes, the stats will most likely need to change, but -at least in my opinion- it shouldn't be that hard to add a few new items to the store. They just recently proved that the store can change by taking "Warmog's Armor" out of the ARAM mode.

Of course, I could be completely misunderstanding the problem and just offering a useless scenario.

Edited for clarity.


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Alcibion

Senior Member

06-10-2013

Hey, EUW player here (hence the low account level) and avid Viktor fan.

I personally wouldn't mind waiting for s4 to have a "proper" solution to Viktor's perceived "lack of flavour", however I'm curious about the thought process behind it. Would you care to give more details?

As in, if I got it well the idea is to allow Viktor to combine augments for a fixed cost, while nerfing all base augments to compensate for the better scaling. Why this direction in particular?
- The augments are pretty cost-effective (Death more-so, if only because of how hp5 and mp5 lose relative value as the game goes on) but are of variable slot-effectiveness (they most notably force you to stop growing or warding earlier, depending on what you want with your 6th slot, and generally to make choices regarding your build because you can't stack as much damage/utility as other mages—which I find interesting because in a way, it is adapting to your environment and the circumstances). Obviously you can't keep them as they are because even though you lose out on one "standard" item, you gain so much from a single one that the slot-effectiveness is there.
- Is it a tech issue that prevents you from, for example, making each augment/combination cost more than the previous one, to make the Hexcore move on a (mutually-exclusive) scale from cost-effectiveness to slot-effectiveness the more you add? Or to have the bonus from further augments get reduced (I guess this one would introduce too much information compared to the other solutions)? Or are there other motivations behind it (for example the "keep numbers, make further cost more" approach would create a scenario where you're less likely to end the game with all 3, which maybe you deem not in line with Viktor's thematic)?
- If there were other approaches to that one solution you considered, would you care sharing some?


I'm also curious as to your perception of Viktor's state atm (tho I'm obviously biaised since I dunno in which proportions each augment is bought, for example). The most encountered build seems to rely on Death Augment, then either full burst (with items like Deathcap, Void Staff) or more poke (Grail, Rylai's+Liandry's).
When relying primarily on E and damage, Viktor tends to fall-off naturally as the game goes:
- he remains squishy because of itemisation, while the overall burst/dps in the game grows, meaning it's faster/easier to kill him during a cc before he can cast Q or activate Zhonya's.
- his E's damage decreases in relative power, meaning he has to hit more to kill/put someone in kill range, thus exposing himself more often. It notably comes from itemisation (even Bulwark aura for glass cannons) + stronger shields/heals + level-gained stats.
- Q becomes more awkward to use because of range (a similar pattern to Pantheon's, Elise's, Ryze's, etc. Q abilities, great for lane poking, harder as the likelihood to get caught at such a "standard" range and die increases), putting further emphasis on hitting more Es.
- The fact that he is ultimate-reliant compounds on all this, since its cooldown remains at 120s through-out, unless you itemise significant CDR it creates sizable windows of opportunities for the enemy team to engage while it's down, cutting the biggest part of your teamfighting damage from the equation (champions such as Ahri, Xerath, Orianna, Rumble are great at exploiting this and aware players can prove challenging in midgame). It also means that the "heals/shields" argument also works on his churning damage: low initial burst becomes more of a concern when low health targets are more likely to shield/heal/lifesteal enough to make up for the periodic damage, which puts emphasis on softening such targets and making sure to incapacitate/kill them before they have the chance to use those means of survival (effectively making you rely on initial burst rather than periodic damage for your "actual" damage, despite the tremendous AoE it provides in reality).
- Since he can't rely too heavily on the churning of his ult and thus needs as much instant burst as he can muster, using his Q and the initial damage of his ult on the frontline/bruiser is rarely the best option if even a good one. Obviously team comp depends here (a high range/sustained damage team could have him use his ult to scatter the frontline while his teammates take care of the carries in the back, for example) but in most cases you want to hold on all your spells until they can hit the squishies.
- Those can all be derived from numbers, the last part is more personal experience: the previous points combined can be summed up (and simplified) with "Because he can't reasonably kill people from E alone and his ult's periodic damage can be countered by shields and lifesteal (contrary to burst), Viktor has to get in Q/R cast range to reach his primary targets, the squishies, which is harder and riskier the longer the game goes" (especially once people group), and he relies heavily on an ultimate with a level 16-cooldown significantly longer than most other burst AP caster (or even AP caster in general).

Now, let me be clear, this isn't necessarily a bad thing! Viktor has several strong timings (Augment: Death, and after that one Deathcap to profit from his "free" AP are two of them), very strong early levels against most mid laners, an excellent farming tool (you need Anivia/TF/Lux/Jayce/Kha'Zix to clear from farther than him) which helps him roam well, and Augment:Death provides him with a very high midgame burst, so those strengths have to be offset in some way, which his reliance on blue buff, squishiness, lack of mobility (W's long-ass animation lets him reduce damage more than prevent it) and awkward teamfighting as soon as he can't burst the frontliners all do. And it's good, at least in my eyes, Viktor has clear strengths and weaknesses, a well-defined power curve, and even better, he doesn't become weaker or less useful later on as much as he simply becomes harder to play effectively. You can still get a lot of enjoyment from contributing because you had to struggle for it, and with proper positioning/cooldown management remain useful past your prime.
So the TL;DR and question regarding all that "You and where Viktor stands now" part is: what are your thoughts on it? Are you satisfied with the role he has taken on and the way it plays out?

I don't think he is in too much of a bad spot now—burst casters tend to be because of how HP itemisaton screws them harder than MR and there's Bulwark to top it off, but amongst them he's pretty fine. However, it's true that the role/archetype in which he's cast deviates from what he seemed to be intended "feel"-wise in the beginning.

Well, thanks if you read it all down to here and hoping for an answer if you get the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariachi Duck View Post
I don't get why the previous iteration can't be done with simply a less-elegant programming mechanism. [...]
Etc. etc. While this increases the number of items from 7 to 15, it does exactly what you want it to do with the current tech. It's a bit clunky, but it would give Viktor players the chance to test the play experience you had in mind before the tech rolls out to make it more cohesive and intuitive visually/interface-wise.
Because that's exactly what you want to avoid: creating additional stuff (that all needs to be tested yadda-yadda), then having to remove it, make sure you don't break anything, replace it, test the new stuff, clean up, etc.
Rioters often mention how legacy code can be a ***** to deal with, that's the idea here: not creating even more artefacts.


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spangledashia

Member

06-10-2013

What if you were to go with something along the line of Elise's miracle? That item is kept in your inventory until you level 3 times then becomes a buff that is permanent but doesn't take up a slot? that way Viktor still gets to chose which ability to evolve but doesn't feel like hes wasting a slot?


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Yemaco

Senior Member

06-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by spangledashia View Post
What if you were to go with something along the line of Elise's miracle? That item is kept in your inventory until you level 3 times then becomes a buff that is permanent but doesn't take up a slot? that way Viktor still gets to chose which ability to evolve but doesn't feel like hes wasting a slot?
this might end up being a bit over power, also it would be hard for other players too see whether upgraded and change their strategy accordingly

Ive loved viktor since the day he came out, hes brought me through tough times in ranked and gave me a champ i can feel no one else i know plays

I cant tell you how many times ive either gotten a "omg ive never played against that champ" or a " i thought i was the only one who plays vik."

Hes not played much because he feels weird at first, thats doesnt mean hes a bad champ. he still has great win ratios.

This is to fix his late game 6 item drop off. and make him seem more like his theme. The true evolution.
Ide be fine with waiting till season 4 for a change, better it be done right that destroy vik. he works well enough right now to still destroy . his lasor isnt a buggy and people are learning how to play him better. Let vik find a true adjustment. plz plz plz dont rush it.

His late game might drop off, but if done right he can be a GOD early gaem and DESTROY teamfights later.

now what he does need , IS A NEW SKIN. i love and own his 2 current ones. but he needs a new theme skin, he feels kinda like pantheon in that since. cools skins but all kinda in the same mind set.

I would love a wriath viktor, or a galactic commander vik. he came out right before ziggs, and ziggs has got 2 new skins since, and i dont ever see ziggs it seems


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Yemaco

Senior Member

06-10-2013

possible upgrades

I do like the item mixing idea, but i wouldnt throw away changing some of the utility of his abilities.

i think giving an upgrade for his q to bounce to another target would be good, or for his lasor to give a slight knock aside ability similer to dravens axes . or for his slow feild to be able to do a small tic dmg .

i think being able to combine an item will still feel limiting and just a lazier way to get a tier 3 . not saying it wouldnt work but really viks limited set comes down to picking void staff or deathcap most of the time for me


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

06-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
So the iteration I'm tossing around in my head right now is something like this.

1st tier: Similar to how it currently works on live (with some effects moved around etc.)

2nd tier: Grants a flagship unique item passive (that will not stack with said item in question) among those that are currently in the item shop, while increasing stats.

For example.
Power: Liandry's
Gravity: Rylai's
Death: Lich Bane

This takes Viktor in a different direction from the previous iteration (where he became PERFECT) to more of a item master, more in the scientist-ish I would think. (The coolness factor being that Viktor will be the only one to have the passive with a unique mix of stats, for example he can have rylai's effect with CDR) What do you guys think?

p.s.: "I would prefer the previous iteration even with the wait" is also a great answer, please say so if you are more inclined in that way.
Also means his power balance will be more volatile, since any change to the items he's linked to will affect him doubly.


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NA Rukhron

Senior Member

06-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
So the iteration I'm tossing around in my head right now is something like this.

1st tier: Similar to how it currently works on live (with some effects moved around etc.)

2nd tier: Grants a flagship unique item passive (that will not stack with said item in question) among those that are currently in the item shop, while increasing stats.

For example.
Power: Liandry's
Gravity: Rylai's
Death: Lich Bane

This takes Viktor in a different direction from the previous iteration (where he became PERFECT) to more of a item master, more in the scientist-ish I would think. (The coolness factor being that Viktor will be the only one to have the passive with a unique mix of stats, for example he can have rylai's effect with CDR) What do you guys think?

p.s.: "I would prefer the previous iteration even with the wait" is also a great answer, please say so if you are more inclined in that way.
"I would prefer the previous iteration even with the wait"

Can't you use boots technology to simulate it?

Hexcore (Tier 1)
Augmented Hexcore (Tier 2)
"Enchant" Hexcore (works like boots enchantment)

That way you can make only 3 enchantments and let the player attach it to whatever core they're using.

Not saying "omg, put it in live I can't wait anymore". It might be a good idea to see it in some test play, so you can judge if it is worth it with a slightly better feedback than written expectation.


tl,dr: Don't dismiss a good idea on technology limitations that can be breached in less than an year.


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Spawnpk

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Member

06-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lameless View Post
Hello,
Main problem with Viktor is that his pasive is realy what makes him weak because his Hex Core item is weaker then most of the items used by mages that can be bought in shop. Keeping in mind that we want Viktor to be this high tech scientist who created Blitzcrank I came up with this idea:

Don't force people to use certain item when what realy Viktor upgrades is his tech-suit

Remove Hex Core and change Viktor's pasive to:
Evolving Technology: Upon reaching lv 6, 11 and 16 Viktor can upgread one of his weapons granting his skill additional effect:

-Power Transfer increases Viktor's movement speed by 30% for 3 seconds.

-Gravity Field has an additional 30% cast range.

-Death Ray sets fire to enemies, dealing 30% additional magic damage over 4 seconds.


So it basicly would work like Khazix evlove ability but in mechanical aspect (not biological). Descrpiton of the pasive and correct animation should keep the feeling that he is this great mechanic.

On the side note:
I just copied past the old pasive upgreades to this idea, I do realize it would need some balance changes so the numbers given above are random, just to show the idea.
although I understand what you are trying to suggest here... we are playing viktor and not khazix... why do we want to make him the same as someone else... I love viktor because he is sooo unique!


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ThermoFusion

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Senior Member

06-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
Good point, I haven't thought through this completely and Liandry's makes more sense on pokes. I was going to test an iteration for T1 where instead of the burn, the laser sweeps back (retracing its steps). If that works out Liandry's would make a lot of sense on E2
I have some concerns about the laser sweeping back...

1) How likely is it to result in eventual nerfs to the lasers initial damage? I really don't want to see anything that would encourage nerfing the laser's current power.

2) How long would it take the second sweep to finish? Since the current laser can be cast while moving, will he still be able to keep running away while the second sweep completes?

Adding a Liandry's like burn to the laser would be cool, if that meant it did % of initial damage burn and % target's hp burn. Again, not a fan of anything that would reduce the current tier


As for the buying item passive's from other items, I like the idea of gaining new passive effects, but I'm not a fan of just copying abilities from other items. (And I sure hope you don't intend to actually name the new upgrades after the items they copy.) Why not just give him a list of a new abilities?

Besides, thematically he's an inventor why wouldn't he invent new stuff.


EDIT: While I can't say right now if I think this new idea is better or worse than the previous idea. I will say that I prefer the idea of waiting, if doing so means getting better end result.