The true evolution

First Riot Post
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Torbo

Junior Member

09-13-2012

I love playing Viktor, and play him more than any other champ I have. In the effort of not repeating big, already better written, paragraphs here's what I think would help:

1) Laser bug fix.
2) Q shield just feels lackluster, as does the range on it. Maybe he hits power transfer, it gets a target and jolts a lightning bolt back to you instantaneously as opposed to having to wait. That wait can be killer.
3) Many of the Tier 3 upgrades for his arm already listed would be fun.

Lastly, can we please get a new Viktor skin? I'm not one to get skins, being a bit cash strapped, but I could see myself getting a cool skin for my main if one came out. Nothing against the ones out, they just seem a bit dull, and Vik's main skin I really enjoy.

Interested to see what you are going to do with him!


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BlazingSalvo

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Augment Power
+ 50 attack range.
Passive
+3 attack damage per level
Power Transfer increases Viktor's movement speed and attack speed by 30% for 3 seconds.

EDIT: Only because I use Augment Power on AD Viktor. ;]

Assuming we kept him full-on AP, idk the shield needs to be stronger. Power gives him tankiness, health regen and augments his shield ability, i.e., Makes him a tank it something, right? Eh, not so much. Power needs a full rework, either doubling or tripling the shield strength or duration, giving him some kind of Armor/MR, or something. I have no idea.

Death gives him damage and AP and makes him a great nuker.
Gravity gives him cooldowns, mana, and range on his utility spell and makes him a great utility caster/support caster.

Power does... well it does nothing. I still love the movespeed though.


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Aporia Zero

Member

09-13-2012

With Viktor, you are requiered to buy augment: Death. It is the only viable option i found in my testing. Augment Death is normally upgraded after 2 dorans and maybe tier 2 boots. All his damage is in that spell because its mulit-target and its mini-rumble ult. What riot should do is incentivise Power Transfer as a meaningfull shield and source of damage; maybe .7 on damage and .3 on shield. Another thing that we need to take in account is mage items. (An abyssal nerf and its still nice, great job right! ). These new items need to be extensively tested on every mage (even cho'gath).


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WarlordAlpha

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Senior Member

09-13-2012

I was actually thinking of making a "Let's Talk About Viktor" thread, in much the same vein as my "Let's Talk About Xerath" thread. Although I won't get to share my thoughts in a fancy opening post like last time, at least I'll know that a Rioter (or two or three or...) has their eye on this thread and hopefully this post.


So, first, how I ended up playing Viktor: Back before Christmas when people dug his info out of the game files he sounded extraordinarily awesome and "OP" to me. He has an AoE slow, stun, and silence?! And he has a DEATH RAY?! Too good to be true.

I didn't pick him up instantly because I'm the exact opposite of an impulse buyer (no joke: I have 80k IP laying around but only own about 20 champions.), but a few months ago I either tried him on his free week or just decided to pick him up for the hell of it, probably after someone on the forums said something about him that brought him to mind again. I think it might have been someone saying how he is a really good AP carry with huge burst damage, which is definitely true.

At any rate, beyond the fact that he seemed like a "cool" champion to me (you know, the abilities, the ability names, the design, lore, etc.), I also really liked that he was/is a high skillcap champion. Just using his E - just learning how to AIM one of his skills, takes games and games of practice. Nevermind learning where and when to use it - just learning HOW to use it takes hours of practice. Combine that with the myraid tactical uses of his shield, bubble, and ult, and you have one of the highest skillcap champions in the game. Why did this matter to me? I like having something to master, and I like being able to say that I play a champion that most other players couldn't just pick up and do well with. Anyone can play Ryze or Annie and do well. Very few players could pick up Viktor and immediately do well. It's partially a silly pride thing, but hey, everyone's different.

Now, why do I still play him, a few months and a hundred+ games later? There's a whole big list of things I could rattle off, but I'll condense it to three main reasons:

1. He does not have any "bad" matchups really. His shield allows him to beat pretty much anyone that's melee, and his laser allows him to trade really well with anyone that's ranged. If he does have a rough matchup it's typically against an assassin like LB or Kassadin, who he can usually beat before level 6. And, of course, he'll probably be more useful than those assassins once teamfights start happening, assuming all else is equal.

2. He is almost impossible to "master." When I play really well it feels amazing (because a well-played Viktor is real terror), but no matter how well I did or didn't do there was always that one (or, 20) laser(s) I missed, or that one teamfight where I didn't micromanage my ult well or should have saved my skills for some other time, etc. etc.

3. VIKTOR MAKES PLAYS. This is the biggest reason I've found, and yet, I have never once on these forums or in any guides seen anyone else point this out. At any rate, what does it mean? Basically, the number of ridiculously huge moments (big plays!) that you have per-game as Viktor just seems far higher than any other champion, at least those that I have played. For example, you're getting ganked in lane? Juke, throw down the bubble, flash back over it, then R-E-Q inside the bubble. You just escaped a gank and got a kill in completely ridiculous fashion. My favorite are the mid-game teamfights though. Again, that bubble is usually what starts it up. Catch a few enemies there then R-E and just watch health bars get wrecked. There's a kill. Spam Q, get another kill. Laser a running enemy, get the triple kill. Or, in a later teamfight, hit the enemy carry with your R-E and watch 3/4ths of their health bar go away in an instant, then while you are micromanaging your ult to zone them out of the fight you focus on melting somebody else. And things like this happen every game. Double and triple kills non-stop. That clutch, last-second laser on running enemies in particular gets so many kills, and it feels so good because you know and the enemies know that the laser takes a lot of skill and practice to land.


Now, that said, I'll get to the actual purpose of this thread: what doesn't feel good about Viktor? I'll list everything I can think of here, starting with most important (as in, this affects me literally every single game and I'm pissed about it) to least important (as in, this only pisses me off on occasion).

1->Can't buy wards. As a player who really doesn't like to build Catalyst and instead prefers to build Dorans Rings, having his passive take up an item slot means that you have a hard choice to make early game - do you go for a second Doran's ring and sacrifice having a slot for wards for the next 10-20 minutes, or do you miss out on a lot of really important mid-game power in order to buy wards? It's a choice that no other champion in the game has to make, and it really sucks.

2->The shield falls off hard. Early game, the shield is awesome. It can block two autoattacks or an autoattack and a second or two of creep aggro, and it can even block most abilities. Then there's all kinds of hilarious uses for it, like how a smart Viktor can really ruin Malzahar's day because you can intentionally eat his malefic visions with your shield. Remember what I said about "Big plays?" Well, there is nothing more satisfying than flash-lasering under a tower to get a kill, then blocking the last tower hit with a shield off the minion wave to survive with a sliver of health. But then, after level 9 or so, something goes wrong: his shield stops doing anything. Like, at all. I can't tell you the last time I even noticed the shield after about 20 minutes into the game. With 500 AP you're gonna get a shield with a strength of only about 230 health, and given that I usually have around 2300+ health with Rylais, and given that Viktor doesn't have any Armor or MR....that shield isn't going to save you, it's typically just going to delay your death by an autoattack. But that in and of itself isn't a huge deal. I could live with that if it wasn't for the fact that...

3->Using the shield often gets you killed. It took me a while to realize this. The worst part is that even though I now realize it I still haven't been able to convert that knowledge to smarter gameplay (although I'm trying) because it's so **** counter-intuitive. But here's the root issue: the shield's range is low. And that's not necessarily bad, because it keeps it balanced in the laning phase. But in teamfights, coming within 500-600 range to use it seems to get me killed far too often. You can usually use your laser and ult on the enemy carries without guaranteeing your own funeral if you're smart, but if the enemy team has any brains at all the best you're gonna be able to do is use your shield on the tanks or whoever is closest. And it's a shame, because I know that every time my R-E drops the enemy carry or support to 1/4 health that the quick Q would finish them off, but more often than not I get the kill and then immediately die. I'll admit that this isn't a huge problem because the solution is "don't be greedy and don't play stupid," but it seems very strange that one of his spells, the one that seems like it's supposed to help him survive, is the one that if used improperly gets you killed.

4->Invisible laser doesn't give vision properly. No explanation needed here, I'm sure you've noticed it, and I'm sure someone will work on a fix for this sooner or later. But it's there.

5->Laser still doesn't deal damage sometimes, especially on minions. Doesn't happen on champions too much, but at least once or twice a game it fails to hit minions and once every handful of games it'll be very obvious I lost a kill because the laser didn't deal damage (it might happen more often but it's impossible for me to tell what is and isn't doing damage in teamfights). As with the above this issue is obviously missing the point of this thread, but eh, might as well include it.

6->Seemingly variable delay on Viktor's ult. The initial burst, the creation of the cloud, seems to have some kind of funky delay on it. Sometimes it feels instant, other times it feels like it has a 0.25-0.5s delay. This could be attributed to lag, but the laser and Q absolutely never feel this way, so I think I've eliminated network lag as a potential cause. Whatever the reason, I can feel this issue happening, and I frequently lose kills and embarrass myself because of it.

7->Viktor's ult can't be moved long distances even if it's close to Viktor. Basically, imagine a mid-game "teamfight" where a 3v3 is happening to one side of mid lane, and a 2v2 is happening on the other side. Viktor ults in one fight and gets the kills with the R-E combo, then wants to move his ult to the other fight so it can deal the rest of the damage. But the thing is, even if Viktor runs alongside his ult to get the maximum speed, he's gonna waste at least 3 or 4 seconds of it just getting to the other fight.

8->Viktor's ult seems to have a mind of its own sometimes. Every so often the cloud will just kind of try to move behind Viktor after he casts it, or something silly like that. I have no idea why it does this, but i swear that sometimes it defaults the new "move-to" position to wherever Viktor was when he cast it.


That's about all I can think of for now, if I think of something else I'll make a new post or something. At any rate, what to do about the above:

1. This is tough. The best solution I've come up with so far is to allow wards to stack "inside" of your augment slot (only allow 1 or 2 in that slot though so it isn't broken very late game) and a little eye icon or number or something would indicate that wards are being stored in that slot. I don't even know if this is technically possible but it's not a terrible solution I suppose.

2 & 3. I'm not even sure anything can be done, or should be done, about this. I'm mostly just throwing those "problems" out for the sake of throwing stuff out here. Honestly, if nothing was changed here, I wouldn't care. Ideally the range would be increased or something, but every time I come up with a way to trade something to get that range increase I end up disliking the end result more than I dislike what is currently in the game. The best possible trade I can think of would probably be more range for less damage, but the amount of damage you'd have to trade for this to be even remotely balanced would almost certainly make this not worth it. For that reason I say I can just live with what's in the game.

4 & 5. Bugfixes, plain and simple.

6. Given that I'm not sure whether this problem is even real or not I can't even begin to make any kind of suggestions, but can you at least look into this?

7. I feel like the best possible solution to this one would be either "the cloud gains a flat movement speed bonus if it's moving in roughly the same direction as Viktor" or just increasing the speed at distances very close (like 400 range) to Viktor.

8. Bugfix?


So, based on my "fixes," something should be really apparent: Viktor himself doesn't need changes. This is absolutely huge and, as an avid Viktor player, I REALLY hope you guys keep this in mind. Viktor feels more or less balanced, and any time I think of "improving" anything I know that it means giving something else up in order to maintain that balance. And really, it just doesn't seem worth it.

One thing i would like changed, though? Make it so that he can cast Q, W, and R on the run like he can with his laser. I feel like it would make him feel a lot more uniform, smooth, and consistent. It would also help make up for his lack of mobility, and make him stand out a little more from every other champ in the game. I would gladly trade that "ward-slot" mid game for the ability to kite like crazy by casting all my spells on the run.


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Now, the next question is, why bother writing this if the ultimate conclusion I came to is "Viktor is a ton of fun and his 4 abilities shouldn't be touched?" Well, Viktor isn't just 4 abilities: he has a passive. And that passive, while fundamentally solid, has suffered an absolutely horrendous implementation.

"Absolutely horrendous," isn't that hyperbole, you'll say? No. It really, truly isn't. When your passive gives you 3 options and option 3 gets chosen 95% of the time, option 2 4% of the time, and option 1 1% of the time, something is seriously, seriously broken. So, what went wrong?


Obviously I wasn't in the design meetings for Viktor, but to me it seems like nobody at Riot had any kind of goal for Viktor's playstyle, nobody had any kind of goal for what Viktor was supposed to be, and nobody had any kind of goal for what the passive was actually supposed to do for Viktor players. Why is it that I think this? Let's look at his kit real fast, and then we'll get to the augments.

Q: Low-ish-range single-target nuke that returns some of the damage to Viktor as a shield. This sounds like something that belongs on a tank or tanky DPS.
W: AoE slow field that stuns for 1.5s if enemies are stupid enough to hang around inside. Does not deal damage. Sounds like something that belongs on a tank or support, or maybe possibly a control/support oriented mage.
E: Linear skillshot with unlocked origin point, deals tons of damage at very long ranges and over a highly unpredictable area. Sounds like something that belongs on a burst mage.
R: AoE burst damage with minor silence to add a little disruption, then movable AoE damage over time effect for zoning capability. Sounds like something that belongs on a mage or a support.

So, right away, Viktor's kit doesn't really know what it wants to be. It's a bunch of really fun really awesome skills mashed together. Which isn't totally a bad thing, because it's produced one of the most fun and interesting champions in the game, but it does create problems. One of those is that, just looking at Viktor's kit, im not sure what lane he belongs in or how I should build him. His Q and W scream "play me as a tanky support!" but the insane ratios on his Q, E, and R, and the nature of his E and R in particular, scream "I'm a really powerful burst mage!"

So, which is it? Well, this is where the Augments are supposed to come into play, right? Right? Maybe? Let's take a look at what the augments actually do for Viktor in their current state.

1. Power. Gives an occasional but significant MS boost and a paltry amount of health and health regen.

This used to be touted as the "tanky Viktor" enabling option, but nowadays it's the "haha, you're a ****ing idiot for choosing this" option. And really, the label of "useless" that has been lovingly bestowed upon this augment is well deserved. If we ask ourselves the question "If I choose this Augment, what changes?" the answer is "nothing," and that is why this augment is useless. How is that possible?

Health: Viktor can now survive one extra autoattack per fight. Big deal. Because Viktor is not naturally tanky in any way, shape, or form, and only has a very weak shield to defend himself at later levels, 220 health is virtually nothing. Early game it's pretty significant, sure, but by late game it's worthless.

MS boost: Let's ask ourselves a few questions about moving around. Why would we want to move around quickly? To avoid skillshots? That's fair I guess, but in lane it's generally easy enough to juke them without any MS boost, and in teamfights it's always too chaotic to do this regardless of how much MS you have. And besides, in teamfights, your tanks/offtanks should be eating the skillshots for you. To catch a running enemy? Viktor already has a super long-range execute built in with his laser, and if you have experience playing Viktor you can micromanage his ult to get those long-range kills for you as well. Viktor hardly ever needs to chase anybody, so that can't be it. Maybe he needs to reposition in teamfights? But that can't be it either. Because he obviously isn't autoattacking much in fights and has long cooldowns, he can go in, use his spells, and then he has a few seconds to reposition. It's not like he's an AD carry or DPS-mage like Cass where every millisecond counts. So then, it must be to kite, right? But Viktor already has one of the best in the game with his W, and with Rylais his laser/Q/R can be used to this effect rather reliably.

So, then, why the hell does Viktor need a 30% movement speed boost? Quite simply, he doesn't, and that's why this augment is useless. Like I said, MS is great on champs that need to make use of every fraction of a second, it's great on champs that need to chase or kite to get kills, but the thing is, Viktor already has "good enough" solutions to these built into his kit. He doesn't need to chase because of the hideous range on his laser and the targeting of his ult, he very rarely needs to kite any harder because his W and Q with Rylais does a "good enough" job, and he doesn't need to worry about wasting a few seconds re-positioning in teamfights.

Quite simply, the Power Augment offers Viktor absolutely nothing of value, and that's why it isn't chosen. It needs to be completely, 100% reworked.


2. Gravity. Gives a massive range increase on his W, a decent amount of CDR and mana/mana regen.

I guess this would be touted as the "support-ish" Viktor option? Most people never buy this just as most people never buy Power, but I do actually use Gravity every 20-ish games maybe. What value do I see in it, and what are other people "missing" about it?

CDR: Always useful, but Viktor does actually have room in his build for some CDR - in particular, DFG and Athenes have both proven to be excellent choices for Viktor. Blue Buff and Blue Elixir also help pad his CDR, so as good as the CDR is, it's probably not the best way to get it when you look at what Death augment gets you.

Mana & regen: Great around mid-game but falls off late game. Viktor tends to run OOM a lot mid-game, but late game it almost never matters.

Range increase: If I had to pick out one thing in particular that separates good Viktor players from bad ones, it would be that the best Viktor players understand that the bubble is primarily a defensive tool. It is incredibly hard to use offensively against good players, and if you fail it comes with a massive opportunity cost. Not only that, but using it offensively almost always puts you in a highly compromising position. So, not only do you not have it to protect you, but the act of using it got you killed. Like I said, the good Viktor players pick up on this and start using it exclusively to zone out enemies, reset teamfights, or counter-initiate.

The range increase changes this. It actually allows Viktor to safely use his bubble to follow up on an initiate or to even initiate the fight himself! Like I said above, Viktor typically has to use his bubble defensively, but this augment allows him to use his bubble offensively. I typically get this if I see that our team has a good initiate but doesn't have a good way to follow up on that initiate (i.e., the initiator is the only one with any CC).

Why don't other people get this augment ever? Simply because for the vast majority of players it does the same thing as Augment: Death, except in a more difficult, less visible way. Both AugE and AugW increase the offensive power of burst-caster Viktor, but AugW is much more difficult to use and much more situtational. Which brings us to...


3. Death. Tons of AP, tons of (extra) damage.

Burst-caster Viktor, I suppose. This is probably used 95% of the time, just based on what I personally have seen and based on some third-party statistic aggregators.

AP: Obviously valuable. The massive jump in AP, especially if this is bought mid-game, is very noticable.

Extra 30% laser damager: Again, this obviously has a lot of value, and it shows, especially mid-game - if you buy this you'll basically be 1-shotting entire minion waves for the rest of the game, and it, combined with the AP, causes a very noticable jump in your damage to enemy champs as well.

Why is this chosen so often? Two big reasons:

A. Anyone can see the value in more AP and more damage. Literally, even a total newb to LoL will say that more AP and 30% more damage sounds great.

B. The value of the death augment is immediate and most visible. Remember my talk about AugQ and how it doesn't actually offer Viktor anything he needs? Sure, it's fun to run around super fast, but like I said, it's a paltry amount of health late-game and most of the time it offers Viktor something he just doesn't need. It's an invisible boost. With AugW the potential payoff can be absolutely massive, but the thing is, a lot of the time you're still going to want to use your bubble defensively, in which case that augment is basically a wasted slot. Compare that to AugE, where literally any time you use any one of your abilities, especially your E, you feel the benefit. Literally, every single time you use your Q, E, or R, you know that your augment made them all more powerful. That is why it is chosen so much - it doesn't just make his E more powerful, it makes EVERYTHING more powerful.



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So, now that we've found that Viktor's core kit is fine but that his Augments are horribly broken, what are we going to do about it? Rework his passive, of course!

The first step? We need to ask ourselves "exactly what choice do we want to give Viktor players." Currently the only choice Viktor players have to make is "completely useless augment, highly situational augment, or awesome augment that is useful in all phases of every game."

Now, what do I mean when I say "what choice?" Well, here's the thing: we have two options for what direction we want these augments to go in, and both of them revolve around the key idea of "what role is Viktor supposed to fill on a team."

If we want to keep Viktor as a burst-mage (let's face it - it's the only viable way to play Viktor right now), then 2/3 augments are going to look radically different than if we want the augments to give Viktor players the choice of either going tanky/supporty/bursty/DPS. Put another way, which choice do we want to give Viktor players: the choice of which augment to improve to make him a better burst-mage, or the choice to fill a different role on any given team?


I'm going to assume it's the latter, for two reasons:

1. For some reason I get the impression that the original design intent behind his passive was to give players this choice, even if, as I said, the implementation gives nearly the opposite impression.

2. I feel like there is no satisfactory way to tune all 3+ (yes, we might end up with more than 3 augments, gasp!) of his augments to create a balanced burst-mage. I feel like if they are all trying to accomplish the same goal then it is inevitable that one is going to be better than the other. In much the same way that "hybrid" champions are either optimally built as either AP or AD, only one version of burst-mage Viktor would be mathematically superior.

However, if the augments turn Viktor into a totally different type of champion, then direct comparison becomes impossible and all of the augments suddenly become viable or unviable due to their own merit.


So, now that I've made it my design goal to tune his passive to turn him into a different type of champion, let's just toss out some ideas for what kind of champion we could turn him into:

1. Burst-mage. Squishy with super-high short term DPS with significantly lower sustained DPS (think how Viktor is currently played)
2. DPS-mage. Squishy with high short term DPS with marginally lower sustained DPS (think Cass)
3. Tank. Lots of CC, disruption, and durability, but low DPS.
4. Support. Lots of CC and disruption. About as squishy as burst or DPS Viktor but with higher DPS than a tank.


I feel like 1 is already taken care of, and basically balanced within the current game as the Death augment. No need to make any changes to something that works and is fun.

With 2, I feel like giving Q augment something like "reduces cooldown by 1.5 seconds before CDR, increases range by 50" or something like that. Basically, Viktor would lose the burst and AoE damage from death augment but would gain significantly higher single-target DPS from his Q. The shield might need to be nerfed with this augment. It might literally need to say "reduces shield amount to 20% of damage done" or "only applies shield once every 5 seconds"

With the tanky option, CC is king. Maybe make his laser leave the line on the ground for 2 or 3 seconds and anyone that walks over it gets slowed, karthus-style? Maybe increase the silence duration on his ult to like 1.5 seconds? In addition to giving him more defensive stats, and maybe making his Q steal Armor/MR?


There's a lot of potential to play with. One thing in particular I'd like to emphasize though is that I think that limiting his Augments to one specific ability is too constraining. I feel like making the theme of his augments more or less what I have above would be ideal. For example, the new names could be:

"Augment: Doom"
"Augment: Disruption"
"Augment: Rapid Fire"
"Augment: Invincible"
"Augment: Destruction"

or something along those lines.

Those don't imply anything about specific abilities, instead they imply a lot about his stats and role on the battlefield. This fundamental change in what the augments do is easy to reconcile given that their entire purpose is being focused and honed.


At any rate, that's all I've got for now. I might turn this post into it's own thread at some point. Either way, as an avid Viktor player I'm glad to have put my thoughts here and really hope you guys from Riot will read/respond to it.

SCIENCE!


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Eilos

Senior Member

09-14-2012

solcrushed pls


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XElement

Senior Member

09-15-2012

know what...I been playing him a lot lately.

And I seen Ahri, her orb is super fast.
When I use Viktors? Slow feeling.


I feel like its easy to dodge. Sure it has great range and nice damage but it feels easy to dodge when not bugged.
He is SQUISHY, I mean too squishy. awful armor/mr.
Plus, laser has a long CD and he kinda has to get into melee range for his Q. Or else he is sitting in the back pokign all day with a laser.

Idk, I think he could be a tad less squishy. Faster speed time on laser. Maybe a tad stronger on his AA's. Since after his laser he has his Q and then waits a bit, I mean he really relies on his Ult. Since he has to AA after his E/Q combo.

Maybe lower the CD on his laser or Q, something so he isn't relying so strongly on his ult.
Maybe increase his AD slightly so he can do some damage with his AA's since if ult is on CD and I E, I have like a 4 second Q, while E is on a longish CD


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Eskimooooo

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Senior Member

09-16-2012

I play Viktor and I even went support vik a couple times. When I first was building him in support, I augmented his stun. I misinterpreted the info thinking the radius of the stun was increased by 30% instead of the cast range. I think having a bigger radius would be a good idea though, or maybe even a 30% increased stun. As for his augment on his Q, the whole health / health regen bonus seems useless on him, and I'm not sure if the speed bonus helps him out much either. Perhaps a 30% bonus shield seems enticing. And if you wanted to keep some type of tankiness on viktor for the Q augment I think adding in armor/magic resist and perhaps passive movement speed would be a better option. This way all his augments seem really well balanced in terms of your play style with Viktor.


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Quenton

Senior Member

09-16-2012

Non viktor player, but just adding my voice to those already on this forum.

He looks really fun (and might be my next buy), but when I free week tried him I was disappointed in how non-unique his passive is. Augment Death far and away the best one.


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Treeke

Senior Member

09-16-2012

Bump

@Solcrushed

C'mon Sol! Tell us something about this glorious project!


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Crowcaine

Senior Member

09-16-2012

bump