Sexy and Sexist; there is a difference.

First Riot Post
1234511 ... 38
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Maledicte

Senior Member

08-01-2012

TL;DR is not available. I talk about a lot, and if you don't want to read it, then don't post.
I see this is a pretty hot debate here on the forums, and I thought it was time I posted seeing as I have a lot to say. People seem to be having misconstrued ideas about the difference between sexy vs. sexism. Hopefully, I can help.

Please do not bring in yordles or monster champs. This is a discussion based purely on the human champion designs for male and female champions.

The issue isn't about sexy, its about being sexist. Now before you go on a trydamere-leesin-kassadin-bare-chested rampage, hear me out. I am more than okay with sexy! This is NOT a petition to remove sexiness, so please stop feeling threatened that all your sexy ladies are suddenly going to disappear if RIOT starts making more diverse females. But first, an example of when sexy works, and when it doesn't (and is potentially sexist).

Sexy works for the design
I am okay with showing skin if it fits the personality of the character.
Ahri, for instance, is the Korean version of a succubus (Kumiho), and therefore is meant to be seductive and playful.
Zyra is the wrath of nature, and therefore, looks akin to a nymph, and is literally "natural."
They are sexy, it is working as intended, and is justifiable to their design. And I love them just as much as Leona!

Sexy doesn't work for the design
Sejuani is a battle hardened warrior in a bakini.
The whole battle-mistress-in-bikini-armor is cliché and overdone, but even then, I am okay with it. I am not okay with the fact that she is supposed to be from the same freezing climate that Ashe is from. I don't care what pitiful excuse Sejuani's lore gives that prevents her from dying of hypothermia, it was just a horrible excuse to take off more armor. The designers of Sejuani had the opportunity to make a truly terrifying, bad-ass mounted warrior, and failed miserably at it. Removing clothes when it makes no sense to the concept and design of a character is just as wrong as if we were to suddenly slap clothes on Zyra and dress Ahri more conservatively to prevent offending people, because this too would ruin the design of that champion. There are plenty of examples where male champions are half-naked and bare chested too, so this is not necessarily sexist because both male and female champions have fallen pray to having their design revamped for the sake of sexiness.

Where sexy may be seen as sexist
Akali. I like Akali's design by herself. She is interesting, sexy, and deadly. But I can understand when people see her design to be sexist by sticking her next to Shen (and Kennen), who is fully covered and looks like a freaking ninja. Akali is up to her hips in bare-skin, and with side-boobage. Why were Shen and Kennen given the same exact outfit to wear, but when it came to Akali, her design was treated completely different, with only the purpose of showing off more skin?

It is the idea that every female champion has to be sexy, and it is also the stereotype that one can only be sexy by dressing in provocative clothing, or at least looks appealing to the eye. And yes, I understand that there are many examples of this happening with male champions too(kassadin, tryndamere, lee-sin). The difference is, there are many different archetypes for male champions, and this has been argued time and time again. Male human champs in LoL are varying from fat, muscular, skinny, half-naked, armored, ugly, handsome, pretty. Female human champs all seem to follow the same criteria: voluptuous, half-naked, big-breasted, pretty, and yes, sexy. None of these things are a problem for individual champions, but when all or at the very least a high majority of the female champs look like this, yes, it is sexist. Men are allowed to be varying in their appearance, but women are constrained to one, ideal shape.

Now RIOT is making a pretty good step in the right direction. We have champions, like Kayle, Karma, Diana/Leona, ect. to counter the sexy champs (Sejuani, Cait, Miss Fortune, ect.) But there still aren't any fat, ugly, old, or otherwise any difference in physical archetypes for female champs. What does this say? It is okay for male champions to be fat, ugly or old, but it is not okay for any of our female champs.

So please understand where women (and men) are coming from when they are fighting for diversifying female champions. They aren't waging a war against sexiness, they aren't super offended that female champs are prettier than them (do guys get depressed that they can't compete with Tryndamere's over-the-top muscles?), but are instead asking for the same diversity that is granted to male human champion designs.

-::EDIT::- 8/2
I think people are misinterpreting my intentions here so I will clarify again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcticnerd View Post
What is considered sexist is completely subjective to who is looking at it. If Riot was to cater to everyone who became offended by the design of the characters then we would end up with a bunch of vanilla champions with no distinctive flare. Personally I am completely unphased by any of Riots characters. Did I notice Akali's side boob? Maybe… do I remember it now? No. The fact that part of her breast is showing is completely irrelevant and frankly normal in today’s society. Take a stroll down to your local beach or switch on the tv and you are bound to find women with far more revealing clothing. So instead of trying to force Riot to change to what you think is acceptable why don’t you update your views to be more in line with modern society?
Sexiness isn't something I am offended by. Male gamers seem to still think I am arqueing in favor of fanatical/extremist femnatzism. I am not. While I may be asking male gamers to understand the request for diversity in female designs, I am NOT asking for them to do away with sexy champions! If you were paying any attention, you would also realize that I am telling the extreme femnatzi's that they are wrong when they try to change Zyra's design for the sake of de-sexualizing her. Sejuani is an example to help them understand. I think everyone can agree Sejuani's design went above and beyond just throwing practicality through the window. If you have to come up with excuses as to why a champion is almost naked in the lore, you are doing it wrong. This is ruining a champions design for the sake of making her sexy. SIMILARLY, if you threw clothes on Zyra and Arhri, it would ruin their design for the sake of de-sexualizing them! Zyra and Arhi's design aren't sexist. If it offends you, you have the right to be upset about it, but you do not have the right to request it be removed at the expense of other players enjoyment, because we have male champions like Tryndamere and Leesin.

Again, I am NOT arguing that sexy needs to be removed. This isn't a one sided argument. I hope that female gamers can learn as much about this as male gamers. No, you do not have the right to complain that a female's design be changed, but YOU DO have the right to request they have the SAME diversity given to male champions. Is that so much to ask from both male and female gamers to acknowledge?

-::END EDIT::-


Interesting points and ideas:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon View Post

Also, a lot of people seem to forget that Soraka has side-boob going on, but she's a weird unicorn monster. Once again, do unicorn monsters really need clothes? Kind of like Shyvana. She's half-dragon and is as resilient as hell. She doesn't need armor, really. For a male counterpart to this, we have Warwick. But he's more monstrous than the aforementioned.
I like your points about Soraka and Shyvana, a good example of a much more subtle case that I hadn't really thought much about. To clarify, this isn't a complaint about Soraka's side-boob, this is just an observation that male monster champions don't having clothing, and yet soraka/shyvana do. I can understand why, because yes, they do appear to be more humanoid than warwick, and this probably would stir a lot of controversy if soraka/shyvana appeared "naked" in the game (although they could receive a similar treatment like Zyra where they are covered up with fur/scales).

I am just going to leave this here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imalia View Post
You know who Riot should have made Sejuani look like? Korra from Avatar. When she rides her polar animal in polar conditions, she dresses appropriately. In fact, if Riot took inspiration direct or not from that show's female character designs, I would have zero complaints. You'd have different body types and they'd all manage to be attractive designs without being crass and/or half naked/revealing. Korra is tall, tomboyish, and athletic (really athletic, a bodybuild that is suited for a martial artist) but you really can't argue that she's homely for it much at all. On the contrast the character Asami is what you would traditionally think of as feminine, even seductive at points, but she also is not half naked either. And then there is Lin Beifong, who is an OLD WOMAN who happens to also be a raging freakin' badass and her design reflects it.

Now, the show's creators put all of these designs into the show against the suggestions of Nickelodeon's executives, who weren't prepared to believe that the it could possibly be a success despite the breakaway success of the first Avatar series of which this was a sequel to. They felt they that they couldn't possibly market a female protagonist nor be able to sell toys of her or any of the other myriad female personalities in the show. They weren't prepared to give Legend of Korra more than a season because they felt it would flop for those reasons. Well... they were completely and utterly wrong. The show was so popular, it's now greenlit for a second season and nobody cared that the main character was not the bald headed little boy monk from the original series.

And this is why I implore Riot, who I am sure gives much more creative license to their art department, to diversify their concepts to the fullest and create positive and unique female designs in the process. Diana is a good start. In fact, Leona, Riven, Karma were good starts as well but I want to see more. And maybe perhaps when you do come up with interesting designs, that you don't immediately try to go the opposite way with their alternate skin on launch. I love base Diana, Dark Valkyrie Diana not so much.
I agree with everything, although I am not as disappointed with the skins. I see it this way: Take a respectable woman (riven) and make a fantasy/sexy skin (bunny riven). It is similar to making a sexy champion (Cait) and giving her more respectable clothing (Safari/Arctic).

Quote:
Originally Posted by k0nstant View Post
I agree with most of what you say, I'll just comment on the one part I disagree with.

A lack of diversity is not the same thing as prejudice, and affirmative action to bring about diversity is foolish. The fact that there is no fat female champion doesn't mean that Riot thinks or is trying to make the statement that females specifically should not be fat. Maybe it just means that nobody had a great idea for a fat female champion. And trying to force it to hit some kind of quota is just going to hurt the game.
A solid argument. I'm not trying to say Riot are the bad guys. I really don't think they mean anything harmful, and I generally don't see anything wrong with portraying sexy women. I am just saying I can see why it can be perceived as being sexist when there are many more options for male champions, and yet female champions seem to be stuck with all very similar body types. This is more of a "trying to bring awareness" to the subject than "pointing fingers".


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wylde Kat

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Side boob is perfectly natural and accepted world wide...even on ninjas.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

reddart

Senior Member

08-01-2012

^


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Maledicte

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylde Kat View Post
Side boob is perfectly natural and accepted world wide...even on ninjas.
And I am not saying it is bad. Side boobage = a-okay in my book. But it is still sexist that Akali is being sexualized when her male counterpart is not. As rediculous as it sounds, where is Shen's side-boobage. Where are his sexy, revealing thighs?

I am curious what you thought about other parts of my post, such as having fat, old, and ugly male champs, but these are non-existant for female champs.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wylde Kat

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Well look at it this way...You're a freakin hot ninja chick with ample amounts of..."blessing". Ninja's rely and trickery, deceit, and distraction to win...

Now...what could be more distracting than a scantily clad, ridiculously hot woman walking toward you all "I'm a model" like and then...when you least expect it (because you're admiring her awesome boobage) SHE STABS YOU WITH A KAMA WTF?!

Seems legit.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lagginator

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Very good post, I like your reasoning.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Maledicte

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylde Kat View Post
Well look at it this way...You're a freakin hot ninja chick with ample amounts of..."blessing". Ninja's rely and trickery, deceit, and distraction to win...

Now...what could be more distracting than a scantily clad, ridiculously hot woman walking toward you all "I'm a model" like and then...when you least expect it (because you're admiring her awesome boobage) SHE STABS YOU WITH A KAMA WTF?!

Seems legit.
And shen walking around half-naked wouldn't be as equally as ridiculous or distracting?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Reaper1020

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Bump for logic


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wylde Kat

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maledicte View Post
And shen walking around half-naked wouldn't be as equally as ridiculous or distracting?
Yes but in the negative way...using my vast knowledge and superior intellect, I assume that a half naked man walking up to someone would be brutally beaten and killed on sight.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Oberic

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Sejuani and Tryndamare, same homeland, both scantily clad.
I see nothing wrong with Sej's clothing.

...Now, Akali I can take your side on (I got her Kill Bill skin partially for this reason), but the rest of the LoL champs seem right to me.
Could use a female monster soon, and perhaps a hag type champion or a banshee or succubus/demon or something..


1234511 ... 38