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Is Teemo OP?

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Panzerfaust

Emissary of the League

10-07-2012

Apparently I missed some of this conversation (read: all of it), but I'll try to touch on a few key points. Apologies beforehand if something was already stated, but I want to put my 2¢ in as quickly as possible. Feel free to dissect my points if you feel something is out of place.

Quote:
ACGIFT:
You actually are, in a way, since you prescribe a more-or-less identical means to countering shrooms as one should to countering wards.


He didn't, but I'll one up him and say the general principles of countering them is the same. Know who is buying/has wards (in the case of shrooms, you only look at Teemo). Know where those players are, or if they're mia, where they could have gotten to. Ward for vision to aid with this. If you know Teemo has been staying top, but popping into the river constantly, you know the river and potentially both jungles are shroomed up. If you have a ward in the river, you can see where he's dropping the shrooms (or at least whether or not he's invaded your jungle to drop them).

Certainly early game shrooms hurt even the 'tanks,' but come mid-late game a tanky champion can just walk through a dozen shrooms without feeling much of anything, and that's assuming he doesn't have an oracle's; if that's the case he just walks through two-three on his way to clearing the rest of them. You're forgetting that Teemo's shrooms are his ultimate, this means he doesn't have something a game-changer come team fights. Certainly they're useful, but they don't have the burst or reliability typically found in the form of an AP carry's ultimate.

Quote:
That assumes everyone is waiting for him to drop the shroom and pounce upon it, and aren't pre-occupied trying to maneuver, attack other champions, shield/heal/buff their allies, etc.


A single auto attack from the AD will take out a mushroom. A single attack. This isn't 'everyone waiting for him.' Also, lack of awareness doesn't really make someone OP.

Quote:
Remember the average human's reflex time is about a quarter second, so that, on average, gives you only 3/4 a second before the thing stealths; realistically only the team's AD carry has a chance to destroy it first, and if they're busy focusing on sweeping in the midst of a teamfight, then I'd think something's wrong.


If you don't kill the shroom, then move away from it. Oh did I mention that to get that off you have to be in the middle of the enemy team? If you're going AD/beefy Teemo, then the shrooms while annoying, aren't the end of the world. If you're going AP, then you're dead the second you try to drop one of those on the enemy team.


Quote:
AP Teemo is support Teemo. Of COURSE his AA DPS isn't going to match an ADC. However, it makes him a potent dual-threat, as he has unrivaled ranged AA DPS for anyone that isn't an ADC.


I don't see how 'his auto attacks hurt more than someone who doesn't auto attack' makes a difference. Take Karthus. He couldn't give a darn about his auto attacks (with the exception of laning when he's low on mana), but that doesn't mean Teemo has 'more of a threat.' The reason he doesn't care that his auto attacks don't do damage is because he doesn't have the time to worry about auto attacking. The fact that he is a sustained AP caster (where I think you're going with the 'AA threat,' in that he can be a 'constant threat') means he can pump out continuous damage even when his longer cooldowns (his ult and wall) are down.

Or let's take Kog'Maw built AP. His Q deals about the same damage as Teemo's Q, and while it doesn't blind, it reduces resistances and has a passive AS bonus to benefit his last hitting and W. His ultimate deals roughly 2/3 of Teemo's ultimate, but is harder to dodge and can be spammed (from safety I might add).

I would really hesitate to call Teemo a 'support.' He provides no actual multipliers to his team's power, only a very limited (if potent in the right scenario) CC in his Q and the less reliable slow (the weakest CC) in his ultimate. Your main threat is still going to be your damage if you're going AP, you can't even be a decent wall like you can if you go beefy.

Quote:
It's because once that champion dies, that 400 gold goes down the drain. Supports are the only class that, at high skill levels, die almost never; if teamfights are going consistently well for your team, THEN it's viable to put an Oracle's on your tank/jungler, but if battles are consistently getting bloody, it's a waste of their gold.


I don't know where you're drawing this conclusion from. At higher skill levels, nobody dies often. Supports are actually the one you care the least if they die unless they have an oracle's... If your carry dies you can't siege towers. If your jungle dies you can't secure jungle objectives. If your beef dies you can't defend a tower easily. If your AP dies you're vulnerable to quick engages where you can't quickly take out priority targets. If your support dies.... meh, you get someone else to drop some wards. (Okay it's not quite that carefree, but comparatively, yeah...)

Quote:
And honestly, tell me, if there's an enemy team waiting nearby, why would you want to have your tank intentionally soak three-plus shrooms right before a teamfight? Granted, it's better than one of the squishies being near-wiped by it, but because of the blast radius the tank would have to be so far ahead that he'll get poked and worn at quite a bit before the engagement can even start.


Because by the time team fights come around, the tank can typically take those three-ten shrooms, back off to reset and 30s later he's topped off again. Or if you try to force the engage, you're trying to kill the tank (even if he's low) while their team is killing your carries.

Quote:
You forget that tournament play only makes up a tiny portion of the game; by FAR the most PvP occurs in solo queue, so you also have to heavily consider that most teams are NOT going to be all sitting in a line wearing headsets. That, and because of how few players partake in such tournaments, you have extensive bias in favor of a handful of mains.

Hence, if you want to measure how a champion handles among high-skill players, your best bet is to simply measure based upon platinum-level play. And going on that (like at all skill levels) Teemo averages notably above a 50% win rate.


Win rate itself means absolutely nothing. This is especially true since you're not even bothering to consider what he's played as. If you want to consider 'AP Teemo', you can't judge based on global Teemo rates. Even if you found AP Teemo's win rate, it would only flag suspicion that you might want to take a closer look. There might not even be anything strange however, as it's entirely possible that he simply hard counters [insert champion(s)], and thus does well because he's used as a niche pick. Alternatively he could get hard countered by a champion or group of champions, so he gets rocked when players pick him early. Again, win rate itself means about the same as someone saying 'I had a K/D of X in my last game,' in other words, absolutely nothing.

Quote:
If they weren't OP before a nerf, then BY DEFINITION They have to be underpowered post-nerf. Take your pick.


Unfortunately there is no fine line where something is 'balanced.' Something might be balanced then get nerfed/buffed to make it 'more balanced.' 'OP/UP' is typically only used when something is at least somewhat severely out of whack. Also, a lot of 'nerfs' or 'buffs' are done alongside another change that affects the champion (such as an item change). Basically, OP/UP/balanced/semi-balanced/etc aren't often very black and white.


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Matt Song

Senior Recruiter

10-07-2012

Yes


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Xtrordinari

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Teemo is overpowered.


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FrostyV

Senior Member

10-12-2012

Quote:
TwistWrist:
He's annoying as hell but not OP.

Well teemo is annoying late game if he is fed, he can chase people down. Once an enemy teemo took me out in one 2 HIT'S! But no he isn't op, people use it as an excuse.


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EdgË

Senior Member

10-28-2012

Teemo2Cute. I feel bad when I kill him, especially when hes wearing his cotton tail outfit..


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j76goatboy

Member

10-28-2012

Teemo is very good because of his 3 AWESOME passives. The Quick Walk, Camofloge, and Toxtic Shot which goes well with Attack Speed. Also he doesnt require any tough to pull off skill shots of combos. I highly suggest getting him.


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Maia Kurenai

Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Buy Oracles. Use wards. Play as a team. His shrooms really aren't that big of a deal.

AP Teemo is amazing against teams that don't play as teams. Yes, I know people are experimenting more with AP Teemo. Still not sold that it is a generally viable path. Still seems somewhat gimmicky like AD Kennen.

Also, the fact that the remaining damage is in the Dot isn't actually a good thing. You can boost your autoattack to do way more than 8 damage per second with other items.

Ultimately, nothing you said makes him OP. You just described his kit. Because merely listing scaling means nothing.

And really, no AP/AS or tanky onhit Teemo build can compare to the damage output of the generic AD Carry build.



What is the generic AD carry build? The one on recommended?

edit: IMO, whenever you think Teemo is OP, just think how squishy he is.


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Maia Kurenai:
What is the generic AD carry build? The one on recommended?


I have no idea what is recommended. I've already changed those.

Generic AD Carry build is boots, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Bloodthrister, Last Whisper, and a defensive item. Not in that order.


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Maia Kurenai

Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
TwistWrist:
I have no idea what is recommended. I've already changed those.

Generic AD Carry build is boots, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Bloodthrister, Last Whisper, and a defensive item. Not in that order.


Thanks. I haven't focused much on Teemo's AD Build, I want to try this one! Thanks again!


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TheDjinni

Senior Member

10-29-2012

Quote:
Maia Kurenai:
Thanks. I haven't focused much on Teemo's AD Build, I want to try this one! Thanks again!


I would suggest not building Teemo AD, he has one of the shortest range amongst AD carries and no AD scaling on anything (even his passive) beyond his basic attacks. Every other AD carry does his job better. The blind which makes peeling some bruisers a little easier and dueling enemy carries a one-sided affair, but that's incredibly niche.

He's much stronger AP/AS hybrid or (since his latest buffs) AP.