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Is Teemo OP?

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chaser676

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Osprii:
I believe that Teemo is, in fact, slightly OP. Riot isn't perfect, after all.

My reasons are that his ultimate has a very high amount of damage, and it CAN be used in battle, instead of just to ward the map. Often, shrooms will get Teemo a few kills and assists per game besides allowing his team to know where the enemy team is and guard him from ganks. When I play as most champions, my ult will grab me a few kills or assists, but they WON'T also ward the map for me.

Also, you can just stack a ton of AP on Teemo and it will be nearly as good for his basic attacks as AD items, besides stacking on his other abilities. Toxic Shot has a 40% initial AP ratio. A Needlessly Large Rod has 80 AP, and a BF sword has 45. 40% of 80 is 32. So his basic attacks deal only 13 less on the initial hit, and then they deal 32 MORE points of damage over 4 seconds. This is besides the fact that he also has his blinding dart and his super annoying ultimate that stack well on AP.

That is why I would say Teemo is in fact, slightly OP.


Guess that's why he hasnt been picked or banned in any major tourney lately


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Buy Oracles. Use wards. Play as a team. His shrooms really aren't that big of a deal.

AP Teemo is amazing against teams that don't play as teams. Yes, I know people are experimenting more with AP Teemo. Still not sold that it is a generally viable path. Still seems somewhat gimmicky like AD Kennen.

Also, the fact that the remaining damage is in the Dot isn't actually a good thing. You can boost your autoattack to do way more than 8 damage per second with other items.

Ultimately, nothing you said makes him OP. You just described his kit. Because merely listing scaling means nothing.

And really, no AP/AS or tanky onhit Teemo build can compare to the damage output of the generic AD Carry build.


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Hoizengerd

Senior Member

10-07-2012

i'm starting to think Teemo is OP...AP Teemo that is, someone said Teemo doesn't have burst?? LOL!!! please, you must not be playing the right Teemo's
and those goddamn shrooms when he gets a Rylais, Void Staff and Rab Cap...dear lord, just one takes 20-30% of your health, if you ran into 2 of em you can pretty much count yourself out of the next fight

as for buying oracles, sorry but that's not a permanent solution given to how easy it is to die in this game, and the fact you will be targeted once they see the pink eye over your head, at 400 gold it's a real drain and there are other permanent items that take precedence over something that may or may not be useful (you can't see shrooms in bushes till you walk into it, & chances are you walked straight into the shroom anyway, making it kinda pointless)


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ACGIFT

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Yes, according to the win statistics, Teemo is slightly on the OP side, averaging a bit below the 55% mark for wins across all skill levels. I'm judging, due to the win rates on his items, that he does have a strong "carry effect;" as he has a >50% win rate for virtually all his popular items, this suggests that in the bulk of his losses, he hadn't really built much.

Likewise, comparing them, it seems that his more AP-oriented builds, rather than straight-up ADC builds, tend to have better results. Still, unlike true AP Carries, due to his E he still requires some AS increases to reach his full potential either way. High AP builds plus his passive can make him a very, VERY annoying poker; with an AP build he can shoot a single dart for a few hundred damage... Without spending any mana.

Also, I feel that the reason he has strong win rates at all the skill levels is that earlier, his pure on-hit build (which closely resembles his recommended build) provides a rather high sustained damage plus DOT effect that panics opponents. At later skill levels, when skill in poking and bursting-down makes it easier to deal with him, then most of the Teemos will have mastered placement of their mushrooms. Given the low timer on generating mushrooms (which can be brought to ~16 sec) coupled with being able to store 3 and their 10-minute lifespan, allows him to turn a lane into a minefield when the enemy isn't looking.


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
Hoizengerd:

as for buying oracles, sorry but that's not a permanent solution given to how easy it is to die in this game, and the fact you will be targeted once they see the pink eye over your head, at 400 gold it's a real drain and there are other permanent items that take precedence over something that may or may not be useful


That's why you have the tanky/tank champs buy Oracles. If you can win the teamfight because they are focusing on the wrong champ, then that 400 gold is worth it. Especially considering how mediocre AP Teemo's teamfight contribution is compared to a tanky onhit Teemo.

Playing as a team makes a big difference.

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(you can't see shrooms in bushes till you walk into it, & chances are you walked straight into the shroom anyway, making it kinda pointless)


You do realize that you don't have to walk into every bush in the most obvious path, right? And that people can in fact buy pink wards and put those in bushes. Or at least the support can.

If there is an AP Teemo, why would you play it exactly as normal and walk the same paths?

Plus, most of the damage from shrooms is from the base damage anyway.

Quote:
ACGIFT:
Yes, according to the win statistics, Teemo is slightly on the OP side, averaging a bit below the 55% mark for wins across all skill levels. I'm judging, due to the win rates on his items, that he does have a strong "carry effect;" as he has a >50% win rate for virtually all his popular items, this suggests that in the bulk of his losses, he hadn't really built much.


Win statistics has always been a terrible judge of balance. It judges Fotm and pub stomping well but those should not be directly considered when it comes to balance.

When people don't buy Oracles or ward, there is literally nothing they can do to a decent Teemo. And the idea that somehow AP Teemo is the preferred high level build is ridiculous when you are only level 21 and still haven't gotten your builds down.


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ACGIFT

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Buy Oracles. Use wards. Play as a team. His shrooms really aren't that big of a deal.

Dealing with Teemo Shrooms isn't the same as dealing with enemy wards. For one, Teemo can place his shrooms far more carelessly; after all, it only costs him (at most) 125 mana or a 35-second recharge time, while a ward costs a whole 75 gold. Further, Teemo's shrooms last 3.33x as long; he can afford to be bit less careless and still get use out of them. With 10 minutes per shroom, chances are slim that, if placed in an enemy-side or river-side bush, that it WON'T give you some use.

Likewise, having your support come forth with their Oracles' to clear a minefield BEFORE the big teamfight is just begging to make that 400 gold a waste. Teemo's devastating ability is to lay down mushrooms in the MIDDLE of battle; and even if you can see them, they make a very powerful zoning tool, which isn't exactly making them weak.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
AP Teemo is amazing against teams that don't play as teams. Yes, I know people are experimenting more with AP Teemo. Still not sold that it is a generally viable path. Still seems somewhat gimmicky like AD Kennen.

Also, the fact that the remaining damage is in the Dot isn't actually a good thing. You can boost your autoattack to do way more than 8 damage per second with other items.

But you can't boost your autoattack on other champions like that with just AP alone. Furthermore, as I mentioned above, its main power is, when combined with his W's steroid, is to grant him a powerful poke. IF I wanted to spend a good deal of mana, typically I'd pop W, then Q followed by an autoattack; with an AP build (that is only half-full) I can deal well over 1000 magic damage, PLUS CC the target briefly.

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TwistWrist:
If there is an AP Teemo, why would you play it exactly as normal and walk the same paths?

If playing as the sole AP Teemo in a match, why place your shrooms in the most obvious of places? Remember that he can burst-place 3 at once every 81 seconds (or less!) at level 16, which means that he can make a pretty much impassible roadblock where he wants to. Clever placement relies also on not simply putting them in the middle of nowhere like they're wards; rather they work far better in setting up for a coming teamfight; (such as in the screen before your turret) this ensures that your enemy won't HAVE the opportunity to methodically clear them, when it'd mean exposing their pink-eyed support to a quick burst-down.


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
ACGIFT:
Dealing with Teemo Shrooms isn't the same as dealing with enemy wards. For one, Teemo can place his shrooms far more carelessly; after all, it only costs him (at most) 125 mana or a 35-second recharge time, while a ward costs a whole 75 gold. Further, Teemo's shrooms last 3.33x as long; he can afford to be bit less careless and still get use out of them. With 10 minutes per shroom, chances are slim that, if placed in an enemy-side or river-side bush, that it WON'T give you some use.


Irrelevant since I'm not saying wards are the same thing as shrooms.

But not knowing what Teemo is doing and not being able to see him when he is stealthed is why new players get pubstomp by Teemo.

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Likewise, having your support come forth with their Oracles' to clear a minefield BEFORE the big teamfight is just begging to make that 400 gold a waste.


That's not even remotely true. Because no team should have the support wandering around solo in that situation. Really it should be the tank/tanky champ that should be getting Oracle in that case.

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Teemo's devastating ability is to lay down mushrooms in the MIDDLE of battle; and even if you can see them, they make a very powerful zoning tool, which isn't exactly making them weak.


Also not true. If Teemo drops a shroom in a teamfight, then one or two autoattack kills it. You can easily do that doing the 1 second delay before it stealths.

Quote:
But you can't boost your autoattack on other champions like that with just AP alone. Furthermore, as I mentioned above, its main power is, when combined with his W's steroid, is to grant him a powerful poke. IF I wanted to spend a good deal of mana, typically I'd pop W, then Q followed by an autoattack; with an AP build (that is only half-full) I can deal well over 1000 magic damage, PLUS CC the target briefly.


Except you'd have to get within 500 range to do that which is quite dangerous against anyone who isn't a pure autoattacker. Plus, if you are going to talk about a full build AP Teemo, then I'd have to direct you to a full build AD Carry who can attack more often and do more damage without having to rely on a Q.

Quote:

If playing as the sole AP Teemo in a match, why place your shrooms in the most obvious of places? Remember that he can burst-place 3 at once every 81 seconds (or less!) at level 16, which means that he can make a pretty much impassible roadblock where he wants to. Clever placement relies also on not simply putting them in the middle of nowhere like they're wards; rather they work far better in setting up for a coming teamfight; (such as in the screen before your turret) this ensures that your enemy won't HAVE the opportunity to methodically clear them, when it'd mean exposing their pink-eyed support to a quick burst-down.


Because roadblocks are typically are easy to see with Oracles which again, I'm not sure why you assume only the support can buy Oracles.

There are only a few places where Teemo can do a complete roadblock in bushes. But those places are predictable and can be dealt with using a pink ward. Or just the tank barreling in with an Oracle. A properly built tank should be able to eat the damage reasonably well even if the enemy Teemo has a Void staff.

Still doesn't change the fact that merely going by win ratio is not the way to determine actual balance. In terms of actual balance, I would look to tournament play.

Now, has Riot nerfed champs because they pubstomped too hard? Yes. But that doesn't make the champs overpowered.


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LegendaryLemur

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Teemo's cuteness is OP


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ACGIFT

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Irrelevant since I'm not saying wards are the same thing as shrooms.

You actually are, in a way, since you prescribe a more-or-less identical means to countering shrooms as one should to countering wards.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
That's not even remotely true. Because no team should have the support wandering around solo in that situation. Really it should be the tank/tanky champ that should be getting Oracle in that case.

Yes, I'd considered that as well, but even in that situation it's very dangerous, since at the least it subjects the tank to repeated pokes, which likewise directly impacts their ability to affect the coming engagement.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Also not true. If Teemo drops a shroom in a teamfight, then one or two autoattack kills it. You can easily do that doing the 1 second delay before it stealths.

That assumes everyone is waiting for him to drop the shroom and pounce upon it, and aren't pre-occupied trying to maneuver, attack other champions, shield/heal/buff their allies, etc.

Remember the average human's reflex time is about a quarter second, so that, on average, gives you only 3/4 a second before the thing stealths; realistically only the team's AD carry has a chance to destroy it first, and if they're busy focusing on sweeping in the midst of a teamfight, then I'd think something's wrong.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Except you'd have to get within 500 range to do that which is quite terrible against anyone who isn't a pure autoattacker.

...Except the range of Teemo's Q is 580, not 500 like his AA; you launch that FIRST, which, unless the enemy is a waiting Caitlyn, chances are slim you're going to get subjected to an AA hit. Yes, they could counter-poke with a spell, but that's all part of poking and doesn't make Teemo any weaker there than others. And remember, all the higher-range pokes are all skillshots, while Teemo's poke is a gauranteed hit.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Plus, if you are going to talk about a full build AP Teemo, then I'd have to direct you to a full build AD Carry who can attack more often and do more damage without having to rely on a Q.

The thing is, AP Teemo's high damage isn't because he's MEANT to be based upon autoattacks. What you're arguing is like claiming that Zyra wasn't OP on release because a full true tank would out-tank her.

AP Teemo is support Teemo. Of COURSE his AA DPS isn't going to match an ADC. However, it makes him a potent dual-threat, as he has unrivaled ranged AA DPS for anyone that isn't an ADC.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Because roadblocks are typically are easy to see with Oracles which again, I'm not sure why you assume only the support can buy Oracles.

It's because once that champion dies, that 400 gold goes down the drain. Supports are the only class that, at high skill levels, die almost never; if teamfights are going consistently well for your team, THEN it's viable to put an Oracle's on your tank/jungler, but if battles are consistently getting bloody, it's a waste of their gold.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
There are only a few places where Teemo can do a complete roadblock in bushes. But those places are predictable and can be dealt with using a pink ward. Or just the tank barreling in with an Oracle. A properly built tank should be able to eat the damage reasonably well even if the enemy Teemo has a Void staff.

Again, you keep assuming that Teemo just throws up bunches of mushrooms in the middle of nowhere like they're wards; that's the whole point here: mushrooms are NOT wards. You can't drop a ward while fleeing to zone the enemy. You can't drop a ward in front of your own tower to prevent dives.

And honestly, tell me, if there's an enemy team waiting nearby, why would you want to have your tank intentionally soak three-plus shrooms right before a teamfight? Granted, it's better than one of the squishies being near-wiped by it, but because of the blast radius the tank would have to be so far ahead that he'll get poked and worn at quite a bit before the engagement can even start.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Still doesn't change the fact that merely going by win ratio is not the way to determine actual balance. In terms of actual balance, I would look to tournament play.

You forget that tournament play only makes up a tiny portion of the game; by FAR the most PvP occurs in solo queue, so you also have to heavily consider that most teams are NOT going to be all sitting in a line wearing headsets. That, and because of how few players partake in such tournaments, you have extensive bias in favor of a handful of mains.

Hence, if you want to measure how a champion handles among high-skill players, your best bet is to simply measure based upon platinum-level play. And going on that (like at all skill levels) Teemo averages notably above a 50% win rate.

Quote:
TwistWrist:
Now, has Riot nerfed champs because they pubstomped too hard? Yes. But that doesn't make the champs overpowered.

If they weren't OP before a nerf, then BY DEFINITION They have to be underpowered post-nerf. Take your pick.


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

10-07-2012

Quote:
ACGIFT:
You actually are, in a way, since you prescribe a more-or-less identical means to countering shrooms as one should to countering wards.


That's a ridiculous statement. Are you saying that Swain is the same thing as Mundo because ignite/heal reduction both screws them up?

Do you not understand that there might be some basic overlap between in how someone deals with invisible shrooms and invisible wards?

However, explicitly stating that I'm arguing A equals B when I am not is a strawman argument and completely ridiculous?

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Yes, I'd considered that as well, but even in that situation it's very dangerous, since at the least it subjects the tank to repeated pokes, which likewise directly impacts their ability to affect the coming engagement.


Oh, so you are assuming every enemy team is now a poke heavy team?

A tank can take some pokes. Poke heavy teams are always going to be a problem if your team comp isn't made for it. But to say Teemo is always OP because somehow he is always on a poke heavy team is ridiculous.

Though if you were considering it, why did you post that a team would do the ridiculous thing of having a support facecheck bushes solo?

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That assumes everyone is waiting for him to drop the shroom and pounce upon it, and aren't pre-occupied trying to maneuver, attack other champions, shield/heal/buff their allies, etc.


No, it does not. It assumes that people aren't tunnel visioning like mad.

That's like saying Nunu is really strong because no one is paying attention to stop him from ulting.

When you play against a champ, you should pay attention to his strengths. Kind of something basic that you have to do.

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Remember the average human's reflex time is about a quarter second, so that, on average, gives you only 3/4 a second before the thing stealths; realistically only the team's AD carry has a chance to destroy it first, and if they're busy focusing on sweeping in the midst of a teamfight, then I'd think something's wrong.


Those are some amazing assumptions. 3/4 is plenty of time to begin with. Plus, Oracles still exist in LoL. And the idea that 5 players can't notice a shroom being planted in the middle of the battle is just completely bonkers.

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...Except the range of Teemo's Q is 580, not 500 like his AA; you launch that FIRST, which, unless the enemy is a waiting Caitlyn, chances are slim you're going to get subjected to an AA hit. Yes, they could counter-poke with a spell, but that's all part of poking and doesn't make Teemo any weaker there than others. And remember, all the higher-range pokes are all skillshots, while Teemo's poke is a gauranteed hit.


Except you said you were doing a Q followed by an autoattack. A single Q isn't going to do 1000 damage. I'm following your own made up scenario.

Also, 580 spell range is well with in the range of all the guarantee hit spells. It is when around 700 range where you start seeing more skill shots and less point and click. What you are writing is blatantly wrong.

Plus, his terrible range is what makes his poke terrible in the first place. Actual poke champs have poke ranges around 1000. To do his Q + autoattack combo, he'd need to get well within poke range for a while.

[quote
The thing is, AP Teemo's high damage isn't because he's MEANT to be based upon autoattacks. What you're arguing is like claiming that Zyra wasn't OP on release because a full true tank would out-tank her.[/quote]

Erm, you were the one talking about how AP Teemo's Q + autoattack was high damage and thus made him OP.

So I brought champs with that will completely outdo him.

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AP Teemo is support Teemo.


...

No. That's ridiculously wrong. You aren't even playing the same game as me apparently if you think that you can argue like after like about how much damage Teemo can do and then say that he is support.

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Of COURSE his AA DPS isn't going to match an ADC. However, it makes him a potent dual-threat, as he has unrivaled ranged AA DPS for anyone that isn't an ADC.


So Teemo is an "unrivaled ranged AA DPS" while not matching the ranged AA DPS champs.

Brilliant logic.

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It's because once that champion dies, that 400 gold goes down the drain. Supports are the only class that, at high skill levels, die almost never; if teamfights are going consistently well for your team, THEN it's viable to put an Oracle's on your tank/jungler, but if battles are consistently getting bloody, it's a waste of their gold.


Are you insane? First of all, what do hell do you know about high skill level play when you are level 21.

Second of all, in what world do you live in when the poorest champ on your team is the one that never dies? Plenty of supports have died because they have Oracle's. Supports can buy Oracle's because their scaling isn't as dependent on gold. But that doesn't mean you purposely have the support go off and facecheck bushes to look for shrooms.

Third of all, why wouldn't your tank buy an Oracle if there are Teemo shrooms around. 400 gold is a tiny price to limit effective Teemo shroom spots.

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Again, you keep assuming that Teemo just throws up bunches of mushrooms in the middle of nowhere like they're wards; that's the whole point here: mushrooms are NOT wards. You can't drop a ward while fleeing to zone the enemy. You can't drop a ward in front of your own tower to prevent dives.


No, I'm not. I'm assuming that Teemo made a roadblock with shrooms. Because that's was what you wrote. Please at least read what you wrote.

Hell, just read what I wrote. Your statement that I think shrooms are wards falls apart if you spent even the slightest time reading.

Because who the hell makes a roadblock with wards.

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And honestly, tell me, if there's an enemy team waiting nearby, why would you want to have your tank intentionally soak three-plus shrooms right before a teamfight?


Because, shroom Dot doesn't stack. If the tank has an Oracle and move+attack into a bush, he'll eat the damage of only one mushroom even if he triggers two of them. And then, he'll start autoattacking the other ones in the bush.

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Granted, it's better than one of the squishies being near-wiped by it, but because of the blast radius the tank would have to be so far ahead that he'll get poked and worn at quite a bit before the engagement can even start.


Blast radius is only 400. Trigger radius is much smaller than 400.

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You forget that tournament play only makes up a tiny portion of the game; by FAR the most PvP occurs in solo queue, so you also have to heavily consider that most teams are NOT going to be all sitting in a line wearing headsets. That, and because of how few players partake in such tournaments, you have extensive bias in favor of a handful of mains.

Hence, if you want to measure how a champion handles among high-skill players, your best bet is to simply measure based upon platinum-level play. And going on that (like at all skill levels) Teemo averages notably above a 50% win rate.


That's completely wrong.

You do not center balance around non-optimal play. There isn't a single real competitive game that does that.

Why? Because balancing for non-optimal play affects optimal play. It screws up the balance at the top level of competitive play.

And an imbalanced competitive scene makes for a boring competitive scene.

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If they weren't OP before a nerf, then BY DEFINITION They have to be underpowered post-nerf. Take your pick.

Erm, yeah, they were underpowered.

Have you seen how long people complained about Xin before he was finally reworked?

Xin was rather underpowered for the longest time. And player anger over how long they were ignored is why they should never balance for non-competitive games. Before that last round of nerfs, he wasn't really picked much competitively but was pubstomping pretty hard.

TL;DR
1. Just because you need Oracles for both Teemo shrooms and wards does not mean shrooms and wards are the same thing. Just like Swain and Mundo aren't the same thing just because Ignite messes up their fun time a bit.
2. 580 range is garbage for poking.
3. You were the one saying Teemo was OP because he did a lot of damage with his Q and autoattack, not me. So obviously ADC must be super OP.
4. Teemo is not a support. Especially not after all the time you spent talking about how his damage made him OP.
5. You don't make roadblocks with wards. Your accusation that I think shrooms are the same thing as wards is ridiculous.
6. Shroom dot doesn't stack. Shouldn't eat more than one shroom worth of damage from a roadblock of shrooms.
7. You should always balance for competitive play. Because balancing non-competitive play will imbalance competitive play.