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In your opinion, what is the largest culprit in lack of damage permanence?

Aggression Inhibitors (Turrets, Fog of War) 34 17.53%
Cost-Benefit Analysis (Why fight when farming is better?) 124 63.92%
The Existence of Healing at All 27 13.92%
Something Else (Please define it in a reply post!) 9 4.64%
Voters 194 .

Let's Talk About Health Regeneration per 5, ID Bretheren

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Lazreal

Senior Member

07-30-2012

hp regen is a stat most players don't notice or utilize in LoL as everyone did in DOTA, for damage in dota was way more extreme, so one poke could bring you down 1/2 health, and going back would leave you out leveled, and staying would present the enemy with some easy food, not to mention DYING in DOTA ment you LOST Gold, yeah they jacked your corpse. So best bet was always to have regen at the start of the game.

I would like to see Doran's Shield hp regen buffed to 10 or more, for where its at just feels so low, I think Doran's Blade out sustains it.

Dota was a much more aggressive game as well, but what I've noticed people haven't reliezed is how to punish people for last hitting so much, in DOTA you can simply deny creeps, but you can't in LOL so what I've started doing like in dota pay attention to your creeps and when one gets low enough to be last hitted, harrass your enemy make them earn that last it


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fabooloove

Member

07-30-2012

The only problem with HP5 IMO is that it becomes really useless for you mid - lategame. Only a few champions can make use of HP5 mid/late game, so, you are forced to sell the item or buy an item you didnt really want to in first place (Shurelias for example)


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Lewul

Member

07-31-2012

Health regeneration is pretty important on a couple champions, so you can't necessarily get rid of it. However, you CAN make it work less effectively as a character gains more HP (probably set to a cap, so each character can only naturally regenerate up to 80% of their max HP at any given time). But this fails to take into account Mundo and Garen, whose sustain relies on their passives' regeneration. Possibly make their passives provide flat regen, instead of scaling?

Along with this, HP5 would have to be buffed a bit to make it more useful despite the drop in HP, but this would make jungling characters with heavy regen, specifically Mundo, overpowered pretty quickly.

Another idea someone in this massive thread I haven't bothered to read is, what if HP5 only worked outside of combat, like Garen's buff, or at least only cancelled momentarily if a champion takes damage from another champion or a neutral jungle monster? The problem with this is, it further encourages passive play and prevents fights from going at their full effectiveness.

But here's the next idea: what if you REMOVED HP5? This would definitely screw things up, but what if items instead gave you more HP from occasionally hitting things, like Irelia's Hiten style or possibly like Fiora's passive? Yet again, not perfect and would allow HP regen on last-hitting, which still kind of promotes passive play, but not as much. It would also make regeneration more useful during fights, since the regenerating champion would be restoring HP while the other is attacking. This would, of course, have to still promote life steal both early- and late-game, so it'd be tricky to implement. Additionally, Mundo's and Garen's passive and Force of Nature's %HP/sec would be best left unaffected, since Garen's already meant to play more passively and Mundo needs the regen to deal with his HP costs on his skills.

I'm pretty sure there are other things that would change with this, and I'm not sure anyone's already said what I just did. Criticism would be greatly appreciated.


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KesslerCOIL

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Hp5 is weak mid/late game if you dont have a metric ass tonne of it.

I like the way turrets are, if they were any weaker then you could get dived unbelievably easily.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

08-01-2012

Quote:

This would definitely screw things up, but what if items instead gave you more HP from occasionally hitting things, like Irelia's Hiten style or possibly like Fiora's passive?
As a personal side note, this is a stat that I want to try to replace early life steal.

Seriously, 3% life steal? Really? That just cheapens what it means to have a real life steal item. Life steal should feel crazy/powerful/rare when you itemize/mastery/rune for it - not kind of strewn around the place. Itemizing into lifesteal should feel like you had powerful returns rather than a 'Oh hey, I upgraded my 12% lifesteal to 15% lifesteal.'

Doran's Blade switching to X Life on Hit would be an interesting experiment - though one I'd test internally for a few months. When every DPS build can become a DPS/Life Steal build for the low price of 3 Doran's Blades or a 450 Gold item - that's just kind of blah and makes substantial lifesteal something that everyone has rather than itemizes into.


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DreamsOfGrandeur

Senior Member

08-01-2012

I personally think it's the last-hitting system.

People have a hard time fully committing, because they always have to give up last hits and have fewer opportunities to fight.



I'd really like to see LoL take the same approach as SMITE in the future.

Where you receive a certain amount of gold for dealing damage to the minions at all, while last-hitting still gives a standard amount of gold.

This way - people are more encouraged to push, and the accelerated clearing of minion waves will give them more time to pick fights with the enemy. OR at the very least, people will be forced into confrontations more as games naturally end more quickly due to pushing strategies rising up.


-------

I also personally think there needs to be a cap on Life Steal. That way, early game life steal items can be made more powerful, without the concern of stacking at any point.


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ChaosBloodterfly

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Quote:
Xypherous:
As a personal side note, this is a stat that I want to try to replace early life steal.

Seriously, 3% life steal? Really? That just cheapens what it means to have a real life steal item. Life steal should feel crazy/powerful/rare when you itemize/mastery/rune for it - not kind of strewn around the place. Itemizing into lifesteal should feel like you had powerful returns rather than a 'Oh hey, I upgraded my 12% lifesteal to 15% lifesteal.'

Doran's Blade switching to X Life on Hit would be an interesting experiment - though one I'd test internally for a few months. When every DPS build can become a DPS/Life Steal build for the low price of 3 Doran's Blades or a 450 Gold item - that's just kind of blah and makes substantial lifesteal something that everyone has rather than itemizes into.


It would be a good buff for Attack Speed (on-hit) builds, because they have no sustain. Tank builds have hp/5 (FoN is pretty noticable actually), AD has lifesteal, AP has spellvamp. It's actually one of the reasons I don't like AS builds (the non-crit thing isn't that big of a deal, you trade late game damage for more mid game damage).


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Jametha

Junior Member

08-01-2012

I've found hp/5 to be very powerful. I pretty much exclusively play Sejuani, and I build warmogs, force of nature, and shurelya's. between these items i can initiate a team fight, take a bunch of damage and walk out while using aoe. then after a bit I'm back to 1/4 hp again and can run in for some extra impact the enemy team wasn't expecting because i regenerate 174 hp/5 as well as force of nature's passive. I never have to go back to the well for hp.


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Panzerfaust

Emissary of the League

08-01-2012

Quote:
Xypherous:
As a personal side note, this is a stat that I want to try to replace early life steal.

Seriously, 3% life steal? Really? That just cheapens what it means to have a real life steal item. Life steal should feel crazy/powerful/rare when you itemize/mastery/rune for it - not kind of strewn around the place. Itemizing into lifesteal should feel like you had powerful returns rather than a 'Oh hey, I upgraded my 12% lifesteal to 15% lifesteal.'

Doran's Blade switching to X Life on Hit would be an interesting experiment - though one I'd test internally for a few months. When every DPS build can become a DPS/Life Steal build for the low price of 3 Doran's Blades or a 450 Gold item - that's just kind of blah and makes substantial lifesteal something that everyone has rather than itemizes into.


I think it was Morello that mentioned he wishes lifesteal had been half damage to minions/monsters... I really like how that feels. It's similar to how spell vamp gives reduced returns for AoE spells, allows your lifestealing to be more noticeable in duels, and helps limit the healing you get for clearing waves you would have cleared anyway. Heck Swain's ultimate gives reduced healing from minions...


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Dance Dark

Senior Member

08-01-2012

Quote:
Xypherous:
As a personal side note, this is a stat that I want to try to replace early life steal.

Seriously, 3% life steal? Really? That just cheapens what it means to have a real life steal item. Life steal should feel crazy/powerful/rare when you itemize/mastery/rune for it - not kind of strewn around the place. Itemizing into lifesteal should feel like you had powerful returns rather than a 'Oh hey, I upgraded my 12% lifesteal to 15% lifesteal.'

Doran's Blade switching to X Life on Hit would be an interesting experiment - though one I'd test internally for a few months. When every DPS build can become a DPS/Life Steal build for the low price of 3 Doran's Blades or a 450 Gold item - that's just kind of blah and makes substantial lifesteal something that everyone has rather than itemizes into.


So would you want lifesteal to be more... niche or unique/optional to a build? That would definitely have far-reaching implications, as a lot of champions are balanced around the assumption that it's pretty easy to get sustain. Fiora seems like she was given sustain to compete with other top laners, and Darius is extremely strong close range because of his lack of sustain (and kitability).

How would champions with poking abilities be affected by the loss of sustain? It seems as though champions with poking abilities are currently supplemented with other power, even if poking would be a very strong factor alone if sustain were limited. For example, Xerath has burst, Varus has CC, Lux has a combination of CC, decent burst, and DPS with her passive procs. And a poking meta would feel really bad, team fights would be avoided and mostly decided before they start.

EDIT: Oh, or instead of limiting sustain would you rather just limit lifesteal, since lifesteal scales with damage? You did mention on-hit sustain, and the distinction would be quite interesting.