Why nerfs?

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SirLapse

Senior Member

2 Weeks Ago

I'm not specifically targeting Zix with this topic, but I've just not thought about this concept until I remembered Xerath, who basically got a mini version of his ultimate on his kit to use in lane, along with maintaining his ultimate.

I also remembered people like Udyr and the transform champions who have their 4th skill at their disposal, with Udyr being able to level it freely and the transform champions just getting a buff for getting to landmarks.

So why aren't champions getting kit reworks based on other champions? Naturally I'm sure it'd be a kick in the nads for a good amount of people who were used to playing a champion one way (Xerath being a primary example).

But I'm not specifically talking about champions with a definitive kit, rather, I'm speaking about kits with one too many weaknesses.

An example, if you made Zix's Q have a higher cooldown, AoE damage, and much higher damage. But then you switch the Q with his R and make buffs/nerfs accordingly to everything? (Just an example)

I'm just confused as to why kits are just getting nerfed so that a champion becomes less viable, but their secondary tracks get hurt too. And some champions just don't get kit reworks for overall healthier gameplay, and others are just getting hit because of the wrong reasons (Kha'Zix is actually the epitome of getting hit for the wrong reasons, then getting hit for the right one, with all the wrong reasons finally coming back to bite him).

Aren't some champions stronger in the bottom lane because of their synergetic items?
Aren't some champions stronger in the jungle because they don't really need that many items to have an impact?
Aren't some champions stronger in the mid lane because they start with an advantage or get an advantage sooner than others?
Aren't some champions stronger in the top lane because of purely their champion's kit, so items only exist for them to do better?

If all of this is even partially true, why would people like Kog'Maw, Tristana, etc. be receiving nerfs to their kits instead of the items that are allowing them the power? Junglers were addressed, with only Kha'Zix and the non-meta picks not being addressed (which is a good thing for the most part). But that was the only thing so far that was done.

Bottom line, why are there more nerfs than general kit adjustments for where to move the power on a champion? All of the full reworks didn't do this...and I would much prefer a partial rework over just nerf after nerf.
I am going to wait and see for more changes as Riot continues their seasonal transition into championships and finally the next season, but I just hope that gameplay health is more of a goal rather than toning people down to the level of other champions.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

2 Weeks Ago

whats the difference between a nerf and a general kit adjustment.

If your Q does half damage now it effects the whole kit


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SirLapse

Senior Member

2 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
whats the difference between a nerf and a general kit adjustment.

If your Q does half damage now it effects the whole kit
From what I posted in the last part, basically if your goal is to tone down something and it helps gameplay health, it's all good. I'm just unsure of why nerfs to champion kits are the target area this time around.

Moving the power of the kit elsewhere is one alternative, targeting the items for the dominating champions is another thing. For junglers, items weren't the issue (in fact it was the lack of necessity of items). Laners like carries who are heavily affected by item changes, Riot is targeting their kits instead of the items that are empowering.

And yes I am specifically speaking of BoTRK. An 8% hp damage boost to auto-attacks along with ease of attack speed itemization...isn't that a huge factor?


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ofart

Senior Member

2 Weeks Ago

Quote:
If all of this is even partially true, why would people like Kog'Maw, Tristana, etc. be receiving nerfs to their kits instead of the items that are allowing them the power? Junglers were addressed, with only Kha'Zix and the non-meta picks not being addressed (which is a good thing for the most part). But that was the only thing so far that was done.
Thats' a good point and it's what I was mentioning to Statikk in the pre-4.12 Q&A thread.

Quote:
Kog'Maw is a champion with many skillshots and a lot of cooldowns he has to manage perfectly to be played effectively. If you mistake poke for an engage, you can easily find yourself as a 500 ranged ball of squish with mediocre damage when the teamfight breaks loose. After more than 3-4 Rs, you won't even be able to Void Ooze and save yourself from an Udyr. Just poking with R 2-3 times leaves you vulnerable because your opponents know the hefty mana cost increase makes that spell no threat if they engage. Unlike Tristana, who has basically no weaknesses late game, Kog can still be exploited in numerous ways and that's a scary thought considering what he sacrifices early to get there.

I'm uneasy about the idea of nerfing Kog when he was a non-factor in competitive play for countless months. Now, he's considered a strong pick and nerfs are immediately incoming. His performance, at least in the NA LCS, wasn't at all dominant (just 35%). He also wasn't pick/ban like a Kassadin. Lucian, Lee Sin, Morgana and others have reigned supreme far longer so why is there a rush to reduce the power of new top choices? Most of what makes Kog strong is a result of 4.10 and other S4 changes, such as the Exhaust buff nerfing assassins. This suggests that with a few more game changes and meta shifts, the champion can easily be relegated back to low tier when also hit by a nerf. This may already be happening to Twitch.

There hasn't been a lot of time to fully explore the best counter strategies, comps. and tactics to deal with Kog. Furthermore, when he does well, it's often because the team comp. is built to funnel everything into him and keep him alive. Almost any ADC would appear strong with that much gold, peel, and protection. Kog has a small following intimately familiar with all his ins and outs. He fulfills a specific niche and unlike pre-4.10 Lucian, isn't picked for every comp.. It's only natural that a champion would excel when the niche he's built for actually comes into play.

Moreover, his alternative playstyle as an AP artillery mage seems neglected. That route was pushed out of competitive a few seasons ago but it continues to have fans. When Lich Bane was nerfed, many champions like Fizz, Diana, and Twisted Fate received compensatory buffs. This was a core item on AP Kog too. The nerf to Athene's also hurt him and if the PBE changes go through, he will lose out on some of Q's shred early. It's already a skill that is hard to land beyond 500-600 range and I think he should be well-rewarded for doing so. Would you consider increasing the Q AP ratio by 5-10% if the Q nerfs to AD Kog'Maw go live?

I have a lot of fun playing champions in off-beat ways. AP Ezreal, Mage Fortune, AP Kog, Support Poppy etc. are among my favorites and keep LoL fresh. I know they're not optimally played that way but it works well enough for my ambitions. These alternative paths are not a threat to balance in competitive play and I hope Riot considers the impact of a nerf on them as well. If Q is nerfed because AD Kog is strong, AP Kog will definitely suffer as well.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

2 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
From what I posted in the last part, basically if your goal is to tone down something and it helps gameplay health, it's all good. I'm just unsure of why nerfs to champion kits are the target area this time around.

Moving the power of the kit elsewhere is one alternative, targeting the items for the dominating champions is another thing. For junglers, items weren't the issue (in fact it was the lack of necessity of items). Laners like carries who are heavily affected by item changes, Riot is targeting their kits instead of the items that are empowering.

And yes I am specifically speaking of BoTRK. An 8% hp damage boost to auto-attacks along with ease of attack speed itemization...isn't that a huge factor?
not exactly sure what youre saying.

But riot wants to encourage counterplay in champs that already have it but have no obvious counterplay.

x=x
x-y=x-y

take from one you must take from many if your goal isn't to balance but rather to enhance or I guess you could call it toning the game down. Basically this patch was a nerf to jungle as a whole which doesn't make anything under or overpowered, it just changes how jungle operates and probably increases the range of jungle picks which is a nerf to every other lane and a buff.

These champions are somewhat difficult to make changes to individually. Sometimes its easier to nerf many than to nerf one or two.

Also nerfs aren't necessarily negative, and in waves they can still result in a buff.

As for bork.. altering the support meta actually has greater impact than changing items like bork. the recent changes favored extended exchanges over short ones. This was a nerf to assassins and people who just abused that active and ran away and rewarded those who found a way to stick around and fight. recently they were given a new option and their old options got buffed.

The BT change also made an alternative to adc defensive options. They are increasing the options for everyone but nerfing some things at the same time. Support is getting a full overhaul

edit
also keep in mind that there are champs like kogmaw who in professional play have excessive power at some point but aren't really using it till some ways into the game and encourage you to even drag the game out.

If this champ gets buffed then they may also get nerfed.

also just because a champ is doing terrible right now doesn't mean they are underpowered. This meta may not favor them. But if you do well in a meta that in theory doesn't favor you that kindof says something. Again relating to kogmaw. I doubt he has this issue but he has been getting popular recently as the support overhaul begins to take effect.


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SirLapse

Senior Member

2 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
not exactly sure what youre saying.

But riot wants to encourage counterplay in champs that already have it but have no obvious counterplay.

x=x
x-y=x-y

take from one you must take from many if your goal isn't to balance but rather to enhance or I guess you could call it toning the game down. Basically this patch was a nerf to jungle as a whole which doesn't make anything under or overpowered, it just changes how jungle operates and probably increases the range of jungle picks which is a nerf to every other lane and a buff.

These champions are somewhat difficult to make changes to individually. Sometimes its easier to nerf many than to nerf one or two.

Also nerfs aren't necessarily negative, and in waves they can still result in a buff.

As for bork.. altering the support meta actually has greater impact than changing items like bork. the recent changes favored extended exchanges over short ones. This was a nerf to assassins and people who just abused that active and ran away and rewarded those who found a way to stick around and fight. recently they were given a new option and their old options got buffed.

The BT change also made an alternative to adc defensive options. They are increasing the options for everyone but nerfing some things at the same time. Support is getting a full overhaul

edit
also keep in mind that there are champs like kogmaw who in professional play have excessive power at some point but aren't really using it till some ways into the game and encourage you to even drag the game out.

If this champ gets buffed then they may also get nerfed.

also just because a champ is doing terrible right now doesn't mean they are underpowered. This meta may not favor them. But if you do well in a meta that in theory doesn't favor you that kindof says something. Again relating to kogmaw. I doubt he has this issue but he has been getting popular recently as the support overhaul begins to take effect.
No no, you're misunderstanding a bit. I believe the jungle changes were legitimate because items were not involved.

Items are the cause of the rise of AA-dependent carries due to the ease of itemization. Zeal received a price reduction, while Daggers received better gold efficiency. Literally, those carries went from paying 33.3 gold per 1% attack speed on daggers to 30. That is literally about 50 gold saved from one Dagger.

Champions like Graves are receiving pity buffs because now the damage items are harder to itemize for (primarily BT). The reason there's barely any bot lane diversity for carries is simply from the item changes.


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astralwit

Member

2 Weeks Ago

Exactly, items, changes to exhaust etc. are the reason for Kog and Tristana's resurgence. They don't have to change the champions themselves. As far as the Kog changes, they'd be killing AP Kog. They can just add a mana cost to W again instead of making R less rewarding. It could decrease to zero cost at max rank.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

2 Weeks Ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
No no, you're misunderstanding a bit. I believe the jungle changes were legitimate because items were not involved.

Items are the cause of the rise of AA-dependent carries due to the ease of itemization. Zeal received a price reduction, while Daggers received better gold efficiency. Literally, those carries went from paying 33.3 gold per 1% attack speed on daggers to 30. That is literally about 50 gold saved from one Dagger.

Champions like Graves are receiving pity buffs because now the damage items are harder to itemize for (primarily BT). The reason there's barely any bot lane diversity for carries is simply from the item changes.
items are always involved. they changed the items recently and they will change them again. Doing it before you nerf the champs will just be a PR headache though