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Why is there no counter-play options to Nautilus' Ultimate?

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True Bandito

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
.. So the counterplay is mainly Flash, Ghost, and Power Creep?
What's wrong with that? People use Flash or Ghost to get out of many other ults. What does Power Creep has to do with Naut ult?

Naut ult is already hampered by low missile speed. You can see that **** coming to you miles away and take proper actions.


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BryAallDay

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Xypherous:
Some spells are targetted. Some are not.

It's kind of an odd argument to say targetted spells are an example of power creep, as they've been around since the beginning. See also: Cryptic Gaze, Dazzle, Pyromania.

That's not to say there aren't clear examples of power creep going on - utility and mobility creep, etc - but targetted spells having somewhat less counterplay than non-targetted spells has been around forever.


I believe you took my words out of context; I never said targeted spells are an example of power creep, but Nautilus in general. His innate tankyness, high damage, and the spammability of his CC is what makes him outclass so many others in the game right now. The same, of course, could be said for Zyra. A lot of the new champions being released follow this same guideline: High damage and mobility without exchanging one for the other.

My point is, somewhere along the line I feel it's necessary to ask if certain abilities are overwhelming and, in general, unfair. I know a hot button issue right now is Zyra's CC mixed with her overbearing burst potential and spammability. Why does Naut actually need the stun after his knockup? League is a very fast paced game, and sometimes I think even developers forget how long one second of CC actually is, and that is why we see champions like Malphite, Lulu, Nautilus, Janna, Zyra, and others who can lock a person down completely being undeniably dominant.


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True Bandito

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
His innate tankyness, high damage, and the spammability of his CC is what makes him outclass so many others in the game right now.
Naut is designed to be a CC bot--he is simply doing his job. As for his tankiness and damage, both will be gone if you just pop his shield--which is way easy to do than popping AP Sion's shield. Naut without his shield is laughable.

Quote:
League is a very fast paced game, and sometimes I think even developers forget how long one second of CC actually is, and that is why we see champions like Malphite, Lulu, Nautilus, Janna, Zyra, and others who can lock a person down completely being undeniably dominant.
Then why Fiddle and Rammus are not being used in tourneys anymore? They have 3 second CC! Besides, why mention Janna, she can't lock down for longer than 1 second.


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BryAallDay

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
True Bandito:
Naut is designed to be a CC bot--he is simply doing his job. As for his tankiness and damage, both will be gone if you just pop his shield--which is way easy to do than popping AP Sion's shield. Naut without his shield is laughable.

Then why Fiddle and Rammus are not being used in tourneys anymore? They have 3 second CC! Besides, why mention Janna, she can't lock down for longer than 1 second.


Janna was mentioned because she's not a melee range champion, yet can CC and entire team for an enitre second from a distance.

Fiddles isn't tanky like Naut; he explodes really. You can't do the same with Naut. See where I'm going?

Rammus is tanky, you're correct, but his one CC is single target and he doesn't provide the immense play options of Naut.

And furthermore, you're asking me to focus the tank to take down his shield so he doesn't damage me. He gets huge offense from large defense, which I thought I read was frowned upon, but I could be mistaken.


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True Bandito

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
And furthermore, you're asking me to focus the tank to take down his shield so he doesn't damage me. He gets huge offense from large defense, which I thought I read was frowned upon, but I could be mistaken.
His shield is easy to take down IMO. Also, Nunu works in a similar fashion by being a CC sponge thanks to his ult.

Quote:
Fiddles isn't tanky like Naut; he explodes really. You can't do the same with Naut. See where I'm going?
But he can do 3 second CC as well as silencing the entire team from a safe distance. Naut needs to get close to do his chain CC.


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BryAallDay

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
True Bandito:
His shield is easy to take down IMO. Also, Nunu works in a similar fashion by being a CC sponge thanks to his ult.

But he can do 3 second CC as well as silencing the entire team from a safe distance. Naut needs to get close to do his chain CC.


I'm going to respectfully disagree here. Fiddle's distances are anything but safe since so many champions have the ability to shut him down from even farther.

Also, Naut may need to get close, but his kit actually provides that to a tremendous degree. His hook has an enormous range, and his ultimate range isn't very shabby either.


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xerav

Senior Member

07-30-2012

... invade at lvl 1 ... counterjungle him ... = useless nautilus


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kanghur

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Xypherous:
Some spells are targetted. Some are not.

It's kind of an odd argument to say targetted spells are an example of power creep, as they've been around since the beginning. See also: Cryptic Gaze, Dazzle, Pyromania.

That's not to say there aren't clear examples of power creep going on - utility and mobility creep, etc - but targetted spells having somewhat less counterplay than non-targetted spells has been around forever.


Problem with naut ulti is that it is targeted spell with skill shot spells range.


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Close Game Life

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Xypherous:

Most of our knockups and knockbacks are coupled with secondary stun effects - Nautilus' ultimate is no different. The way his ultimate works is that there's a primary knockup of 0.5 seconds while a simultaneously ongoing stun effect is on you at the same time. So you're knocked up and stunned for the first 0.5 second and then stunned for another 0.5 seconds.

If you have Merc Threads in this instance, you will be able to perform actions again after 0.65 seconds of disable - which is exactly the same for a stun. If you have above 50% Tenacity, his rank one ultimate does leave you in the air longer than the stun duration - but this problem goes away as he gets rank 2/3 of his ult, as your 66% tenacity will then leave you at a total disable duration > 0.5 seconds.

It's absolutely true that there's nothing you can do about the 0.5 second of knockup after it hits you - However, you can leave the stunned state early by cleansing or QSS'ing during the knockup - which will help you avoid the 1-2 second stun that is the bulk of Nautilus' Ultimate CC.


Question - If you Cleanse/QSS out of the "stun" part of the knockup, can you make autoattacks/cast abilities while you're in the air as if you were immobilized like Morgana's Q or Ryze's rune prison?

Or are you even free to use escape abilities like arcane shift/flash *if* you were quick enough and saw the need for it?


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Leviiathan I

Senior Member

07-30-2012

uh their is? morg? sivir? ... but especially morg cause she can cast the shield on whoever naut cast the spell on and the fight is done... with no naut ult... enjoy 4v5 and getting ur face raped