@ Morello, a genuine game design question about Quicksilver Sash

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Danage

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Senior Member

07-21-2012

My question to Morello is this: Is Quicksilver Sash going to be revised as an item in the game??

Introduction / TLDR

Quicksilver Sash should still be able to remove negative status effects EXCEPT suppression. Quicksilver Sash, at the moment, is a Super Hard Counter to suppression effects. Dodge was removed for the exact same reason, it was a Super Hard Counter to physical damage which shut down a subset of characters. Magic resist may reduce the amount of magic damage, but QSS completely negates the damage all together.

What is suppression?

A unit that is suppressed is unable to control their movement, attack, cast abilities or use spells (including Cleanse). The duration is also unaffected by crowd control reduction.

  • Malzahar begins channeling, dealing magic damage every half second while suppressing the target for up to 2.5 seconds.
  • Warwick lunges at an enemy champion, suppressing the target for 1.8 seconds and striking for magic damage five times in 0.334-second intervals.
  • Skarner suppresses an enemy champion for 1.75 seconds and deals magic damage to it. When the effect ends, Skarner's target will be dealt the same amount of magic damage again.

What is Quicksilver Sash

Unique: Removes all debuffs from your champion. 90 second cooldown. This INCLUDES Suppression effects.

Cleanse removes all stuns, slows, taunts, fears, snares, silences, blinds and immobilizers and lowers the duration of new ones applied by 65% for 3 seconds. This DOES NOT include Suppression effects.

But there needs to be a counter to suppression...

There IS a hard counter to suppression already! A knock up, a silence, a taunt, a polymorph, a stun, a suppression, a spell shield, Gangplank's oranges, Olaf's Ultimate, Morgana's black shield, and of course, death.

A soft counter is magic resist, which is how it should be. Reducing incoming magical damage.

Evidence For QSS Revision

Here is an example of why QSS is unfun for Suppression removal for the attacker... Lets say, for example, Malzahar has 400 AP and he lands his entire combo on a champion with 2500 health who doesn't have a QSS. This means they will remain in his Null Zone for about 3 second while suppressed and then moving out of it.

Damage Received:
Q : 300 base + 320 AP ratio = 620
W : 2500 x 12% of health x 3 sec = 900
E: (40 base + 40 AP ratio) x 8 ticks = 640
R: (110 base + 104 AP ratio) x 5 ticks = 1070

TOTAL DAMAGE OVER 3 SECONDS = 3230 not counting resistances

Now lets consider if the person has a QSS and activates it half a second into the Ultimate. This means they will probably remain in the Null Zone for about 1 second while suppressed and then moving out of it.

Damage Received:
Q : 300 base + 320 AP ratio = 620
W : 2500 x 12% of health x 1 sec = 300
E: (40 base + 40 AP ratio) x 1 tick = 80
R: (110 base + 104 AP ratio) x 1 tick = 214

TOTAL DAMAGE OVER 1 SECOND = 1214 not counting resistances
  • Firstly, simply by getting a single item, the QSS, the champion will receive only 38% of the damage that they would have received. (1214 / 3230 = 38%)
  • Secondly, since the suppression effect has been cancelled, the champion is then able to return damage back onto Malzahar while all his abilities are on cooldown.
  • Thirdly, Malzahar's ultimate ability is now on cooldown without having done much damage at all... a meagre 214 magic damage. Compared to 1070 for a full ultimate.

Any other examples??

Without referring to QSS affecting suppression, I refer to the latest changes to Sona.
In the most recent patch preview, Sona was changed so that her Crescendo dealt it's damage instantly. The reason for that was because Merc Treads or Cleanse would end the effect early and the damage to the champion wouldn't be received. As it was said in the patch preview, this was never intended.

Starting at 1:21
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/m...meplay-changes

Here is the exact same situation. a single item is significantly reducing the damage received.

Similarities to the Dodge Removal

I refer to Morello's post about Dodge... The same could be written about QSS affecting suppression ultimates:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/inside-design-dodge

Quote:
Greetings, summoners!

When we released the Quicksilver Sash, many summoners noticed that Suppression was useless. This created a lot of questions about Suppression – such as its viability, how much enjoyment players get out of it, and what Suppression means to League of Legends. In light of the player concerns, we wanted to take a few minutes to talk about why we’re changing Quicksilver Sash. Over time, we’ve come to see Quicksilver Sash as a problematic item in our game, so I wanted to take a moment to dive into why that is.

  • Quicksilver Sash only starts looking compelling when another champion has a Suppress. But when someone buys Quicksilver Sash, it completely (and permanently) shuts down a subset of characters. Typically, we try to avoid super hard counters like this.

  • While both Magic Resist and Armor can reduce the damage taken, Quicksilver Sash completely negates the damage and suppression effect. Magic Damage from Suppression effects is still countered in much the same way as Ability Power: buy Magic Resist. Conversely, Suppression can be completely overcome by getting a Quicksilver Sash. This means that Magic Resist is just a damage multiplier, whereas Quicksilver Sash is an entirely new defense type that doesn’t have a series of sensible counters to it.

  • Historically, there have only been a few actual gameplay decisions that have to do with Suppression – Malzahar's, Warwick's, Urgot's and Skarner's ultimate. While these do have some cool nuances to them, they’re not the kind of thing that justifies an entire (otherwise problematic) system in the game. By comparison, Gangplank's Remove Scurvy allows him to “block” suppression effects, but this block system is not available to every champion in the game. This not only keeps it from getting out of hand, but makes Gangplank more unique in the process.

  • Quicksilver Sash also has much more potential to remove satisfaction in a noticeable way than the other defensive stats, mostly due to its limited use. Failing to finish an opponent with an ultimate because they happened to use their Quicksilver Sash to negate a suppression is a pretty poor experience for the attacker, especially since the escape isn’t based on a good gameplay decision or skill-based way to survive. The fun to un-fun ratio is poor.
So what should be done??
Just buy Magic Resist. This will reduce the amount of damage from the suppression. If someone builds AD, you build armor. If someone deals magic damage, you build Magic Resist. A super hard counter to a suppression shouldn't exist (especially when it also cancels all of the remaining damage of that suppression ability).

What about stuns?
A stun is a cool part of the game. However, there are currently NO STUNS IN THE WHOLE GAME which have a damage over time proportion. The only one (which was Sona) has been changed so that the damage is all received up front. A stun is a nice effect, but the damage received is independent of the stun effect and does not rely on the stun itself.

For example, Sion's Cryptic Gaze deals damage AND a stun. Taric's Dazzle deals damage AND a stun. Both of these examples, the damage component and the stun itself a separate and do not rely on each other.
For Poppy, her Heroic Charge deals a high amount of magic damage AND be stunned. For Vayne's Condemn, the target receives physical damage AND is stunned. Although both of these examples, the damage relies on the target being stunned, the two effects are mutually exclusive. You can cleanse out of it / QSS out of the stun and you will still receive the full amount of damage regardless.

Suppression, however, relies on the suppression effect to deal it's damage. Malzahar, Warwick and Skarner all rely on the full duration of the suppression effect to deal their damage.

Merc treads also reduces the duration of that stun, but you still get stunned. Warwick and Malz's ulty relies on that suppression to deal damage. Buy a QSS and a HUGE chunk of that damage is cancelled.

What about QSS for use with non-suppression effects
I haven't seen anyone get a QSS for use other than with a suppression effect. However, for those people who DO use it for these reasons, it should be available to remove all these other negative status effects, it just shouldn't remove suppression.

Conclusion
Suppression effects should remain unique within the game and should not be cancelled by a single item. If someone is worried about receiving the damage, they should build magic resist to reduce the amount of damage received. They should not be able to buy a single item and completely negate almost all the damage they should have received. This was the whole reason why Dodge and Sword of the Divine was removed from the game.

EDIT: I will use this section to answer some of the comments:
Quote:
Then do not suppress the person with QSS?
Dodge had the same problem... don't attack the person with dodge. Yet that was still removed.
Quote:
Frozen Heart is a counter to autoattackers, better remove that too.
Auto attackers still deal damage, despite it taking longer. It doesn't negate it altogether
Quote:
And Ignite counters champs that heal, get rid of it.
Again, it reduces healing by 50%. The champion still heals, just not as effectively.
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If you CC the attacker, the effect should end or be negated
That should always be the case. Punishing bad play/rewarding good play should be integral in the game. Not buying a single item and having it counter suppression altogether, regardless of player skill.
Quote:
Imagine an un-QSSable Malzahar, he would own the game
I don't think that is the case. It's not like he is God-Tier at the moment anyway. And that is what a team is for. You are only suppressing 1 enemy out of 5. Surely the other 4 have some way to interrupt that Malzahar. Malz's ulty range is 700, which means they would have to get pretty close to their team to ulty one of them. And if that person did get caught alone, then they SHOULD be punished for poor play/out of position.
Quote:
QSS removes Malefic Visions too
Wow... I didn't even realise this... I have updated the values to reflect that.
Quote:
First off, most people in ranked and otherwise are not as coordinated as actual teams so the ability to properly negate malzahar's ultimate is diminished without something to counter it.
It's called Magic Resist...
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Second. The ability to insta-kill someone 1v1 without them able to return anything back, almost certainly is overpowered and there should be counters without having to build a ton of magic resist. 3000damage for a combo.....
Have you ever heard of an assassin?? And most AP mages deal a ton of damage in a short period of time. And then their skills go on cooldown. With 400 AP, Nunu deals 2125 damage with a single ability in an AoE... But is he considered overpowered??
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Yes qss diminishes the fun of the person using the champion to dominate another, yet not having a champion being able to respond at all to the suppression is equally negative.
They can respond with magic resist, better positioning/play, team composition and teamwork.
Quote:
Your point about people countering malzahar with an item as opposed to a character. Any character that almost requires another to get a 1.6k gold item balances out the team dynamics because your team won't have to spend that money.
Frozen heart reduces damage, doesn't negate it. Thornmail reduces damage (and returns some), but doesn't negate it. Magic resist reduces damage, but doesn't negate it. Quicksilver Sash is the only item which negates damage, exactly like the old dodge stat.
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You forgot Urgot.
No, I didn't, but his swap still happens with QSS and he deals no damage with his ult.
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I know QSS will make malzahar do like no damage, but it will also take away some damage output from the other person with QSS in their build since glass cannon mages/adcarries if they build it then that is one less item for them to be burning through people.
I just don't buy that as an excuse. A single item completely shuts down a subset of characters AND they get the benefit of the magic resist, in return, they suffer a little inconvenience by taking up one item slot.


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atrumpec

Senior Member

07-21-2012

increase cd on qss if needed


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OhYouFancy

Senior Member

07-21-2012

Then do not suppress the person with QSS? If more than 1 or 2 champs are buying it then they are wasting gold at that point anyways.

Frozen Heart is a counter to autoattackers, better remove that too.

And Ignite counters champs that heal, get rid of it.


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NoX Zenilant

Senior Member

07-21-2012

The way I see it, suppression can still be countered by good play even without QSS. If you CC the attacker, the effect should end or be negated; however, that seems fair because it's a tradeoff and both sides are using abilities.

I agree that QSS countering suppression is too much. The concern that not being able to cancel suppressions would make Malz, Skarner, Urgot, and WW too powerful is paranoid in my opinion. These are their ULTIMATES. They SHOULD be powerful. It's not as if there's no counterplay to suppression in a team situation.


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oh god not there

Member

07-21-2012

On the other hand, having the choice of being completely annihilated by an undodgeable attack or spending all your money on reducing the damage to just 3/4 of your life is pretty unfun too.


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Lucky Duckies

Senior Member

07-21-2012

If it gets removed, those champs are getting nerfed hard.

Imagine an un-QSSable Malzahar, he would own the game


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TheSeraphim55

Member

07-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Duckies View Post
If it gets removed, those champs are getting nerfed hard.

Imagine an un-QSSable Malzahar, he would own the game
I'ts called a teammate stunning him or silencing him for you.


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Seiuchi

Senior Member

07-21-2012

Suppression is so powerful that an equal-opposite sort of effect has to exist for it to be balanced.


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Snakeblade

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Senior Member

07-21-2012

You bring up a lot of really good points and i agree with many of them however the comparison between removing dodge and removing qss seems a little over simplified. Dodge was a mechanic which essentially granted immunity from aa where as supression has its own draw backs. In all cases (except partially skarner) suppression also "stuns" the user not allowing for repositioning or escape and in all cases it removes the ability to cast more skills (skar and ww drawbacks since they dont have the dot spells malz can chain)

Im honestly with you on the idea the item completely counters some people but using dodge as your reasoning why its ok seems wrong.


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Windless Bear

Senior Member

07-21-2012

If you so much as sneeze at Malz while he is ulting he loses the channel. The only danger is if you're half health and all alone on top of a Null Zone, or later in the game, if you have no MR and are on a Null Zone. Either way, you have to be alone. At the moment Malz's ultimate is very close to being a 2.5 second SELF STUN because it removes him from the teamfight while he uses it on someone. He is effectively ALSO suppressed for the duration, and any hard CC will break it.

QSS, if not revised, should have a cooldown of at least 2 minutes to reflect the cooldowns of ultimates.


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